Where can I get information (cartridge dimensions, diagrams, reloading data) on the 460 G&A cartridge? According to Jeff Cooper, the cartridge delivers a 500 grain bullet at around 2400 f/s from a 22" barrel. It is supposed to do this from a "standard length action." Does "standard length mean shorter than a .375 H&H or .458 Lott?

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Thanks, H. C.

The 460 G&A is a 404 Jeffrey necked up, and fits a 375 H&H length action. There is also a 450 G&A that is the 404 necked up and shortened to 2.5", but I don't think it'll do 2400 from a 22" barrel, though 2300 should be possible.

You might want to check Clymers web site and see if they have dimensions for them, but as I recall they didn't last time I checked.

Saeed has mentioned his 450 Vincent, and 450 short, which are essentially the same rounds. There might be some data on here, or drop Saeed an e-mail. There are also a few folks with the G&A's, hopefully they'll reply.

Thank Paul,

Is it possible then to neck up the now-more-available Rem. 300 ulti-mag. brass to .458?

Is it feasible to re-barrel a Remington 300 ulti-mag. rifle to 460 G&A?(I'm guessing the bolt and receiver are going to be okay). I am given to understand that a lot of guys buy a 300 magnum and then never shoot it much because the recoil and muzzle blast are uncomfortable.

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Thanks, H. C.

I don't know the differences between the shoulders between the two rounds, but would think it would be feasable. I would recomend using the 375 RUM case as a starting point, as you won't have to work the necks as much, it'll be quite a chore opening up a 30 to 45. Considering the exspense of the project, I'd consider using 404 basic brass, yes its pricier, but will make for easier case forming. The other concern is that RUM brass isn't exactly 404 brass, 404's are .540" at the base, RUM's are .545". The 460 chamber might be big enough for the RUM cases, then again, it might be a little tight. Tight is not a good thing on a big bore. This isn't insurmountable, as I plan on using both RUM and 404 brass for my 416 Howell, but it is something to be aware of.

Other then my strong personal disdain for using an M700 for a big bore, there shouldn't be any major problems in opening one up. If you use 404 brass, the bolt may need to be opened slightly, as the rim is .540" as opposed to .532" for the RUM.

My peronal recomendation would be to get a CZ 550 458 win mag and have it re-chambered to 460, the factory barrels are excellent hammer forged barrels, and the cost of the project will be less then re-barreling a 700. You would also, IMHO, have a superior rifle.

Henry,
the 460 G&A is the best of design for a 458 cal. big bore, it has the slope and design to feed and extract, albiet it may stretch cases a bit, but so what..Improving the case by blowing out the shoulder would be a mistake and serve no usefull purpose, at 2400 FPS it is close to ideal....

the shorter version again serves no purpose.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

Thanks. About using a 460 G&A caliber rifle in Africa (I hope to do so): I've heard it said that the owner of a 458 Lott rifle might be somewhat better off in the event his Lott ammo gets lost because he can shoot 458 WM ammunition. This is probably the wrong forum to be asking about the particulars of an African hunt, but how does one get his rifle and ammo into an African country?

Would it be useful to the hunter to ship his ammo to his PH ahead of time and verify receipt so he can send more in case the first shipment gets lost?

Or is Zimbabwe the magical land where Wal-Mart carries factory ammo in every caliber imaginable?

H.C.

Can't ship it, must carry it with you seperated from your gun, not a problem...

The 458 is the best way to go for that reason alone as it will shoot 458 Win. ammo..That is what I would do...

The 460 G&A is the best of design...however I believe Don may have made a mistake in that it is shortened..I believe it is merely necked up 404...The shortened version is called the 450 G&A, Correct me if I'm wrong...If not I'm going for a new caliber called the 460 Guns & Atkinson, simply a 404 necked up to 458 and maintain that long sloping shoulder that feeds and even more important extracts....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

460 G&A Make from 404 Jeffery (Bell) Trim case to 2.78" . F/L size may be necessary to anneal case neck.
Data source NAI/Ballistec Sorry Ray

RR

I've formed 460 G&A from MAST basic brass using RCBS dies. No annealing required. Push them up into the trim die, cut off a little. Clean up the case mouth. FL resize, seat bullet, crimp. I've only made up dummy rounds so far, but the shoulder appears to be ever-so-slightly sharper and ever-so-slightly forward of where it is on the 404 case. I made some 460 G&A brass using 416 Dakota as a starting point too. Just ran them through the FL die - no problem there either.

I can't comment on much else until the rifle gets further along.

-redleg

RR,
Thats OK I left myself some air in case I was wrong....(grin)

So if the 404 is 2.875 and the 460 G&A is 2.780, then what is the 450 G&A ???

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Only speculation, but I remember reading a list of form dies in a Huntington's catolog a few year ago that mentioned the 460 G&A short. Could it be that the 460 G&A short (or 450 G&A) are the same thing and possibly could look much like a 450 Howell type thing?

Don't know,

redleg

In the Guns & Ammo article I have on the Lott and these cartridges there is a .460 G&A which is the full length .404 case, then a .450 G&A which is a 2.5 inch (cut down) .404 case for standard length actions, and finally a .460 G&A No. 2 which is a .50-140 Sharps necked down to .458 for a poor man's nitro express cartridge. The .460 G&A Short is not mentioned and I suspect that this is a later moniker for the .450 G&A.

Question... does the long .450 Vincent cartridge require trimming also? Seems unnecessary.

Harald,

What issue of G&A is that article in? You just identified one of the unidentified rounds in my cartridge collection! I picked it up at a gun show 10 or 12 years ago, a Bell .50 Basic case necked down to .458. The guy I bought it from had it marked .460 G&A Long, but I could never find a reference to anything other than the .404-based rounds.

Thanks!
Cannon

I should have looked at the article first. The shorter cartridge is called a ".450 G&A Short Magnum", so "Short" is in the name but its called a .450, not a .460. Also the rimmed cartridge is actually based on a trimmed 3 inch case, not the 3.25 inch basic .50 case, as I remembered it.

The article is:

"G&A's 'Proprietary' Big Bores", Jack Lott, Guns & Ammo, June 1989, pp. 52 - 54, 94 - 95.

Thanks for the citation, Harald; I'll have to look that one up.

Fred Zeglin is offering the "458 UltraCat". The UltraCats are his line of wildcats on the 300 RUM brass. the 458 UCat should be equal to the .460 G&A in any practical respect, as the 300 RUM is based on the 404 Jeff. brass with a change or two. He makes & sells dies for his creations also.

See http://www.z-hat.com/Ultracat.htm

Thanks Fellas,

Hey Paul H: Clymer sent me a diagram
(clymer@clymertool.com), which I thought was real nice of them. I believe it was Mitch who told me (and he was right), that the 460 G&A is also covered and pictured in Craig Boddington's book "Safari Rifles"

H.C.

470[QUOTE]Originally posted by HenryC470:
Henry,
On your other question about taking your ammo to Africa, if your going with a partner have your partner pack half your ammo and you pack half of his. Your loss problem will be cut in half. Just make sure you pack soft points and a few solids in each package. You'll have time to swap them back after you pick up your baggage or clear customs together with your PH. Good luck on your future trip.

My 460 G&A uses a case that is 2.80" trimmed, max length is 2.810". Cases for it are easily made from MAST 404 cylinders, just run them into the FL die and trim to length. The RUM cases won't work in an existing rifle because of the smaller head size. If I were making a rifle up today I would base it on the RUM case and make the shoulder angle 25* to assure better and more problem free headspacing. The slight shoulder angle on the 460G&A makes for very precise die adjustment as moving it back is easy to do and that causes headspace and misfires, not good on a stopping rifle! This is the reason Dakota chose to use the Rigby case for their 450, bigger case-bigger shoulder, easier headspacing!

Dear John S.,
I hope I am right with my first message .
I recently concluded a 460 G & A Long project and , in spite of a lot of difficulties , I am very happy with the results : I converted a new Winchester 70 Classic Super Express in 458 , the best factory safari rifle in my opinion and I have axperimented , inventing !!! , some Loads , resulted very satisfying:,are someone interested in ?
I think the ergonomics of the Winchester rifle is more apt for a reliable and quick managing than the Brno rifle ( I have one in 416 Rigby cal ).
Good shooting

Giulio STERNOTTI
Italy

tatoo,

I just sent my rifle out for conversion to 460 G&A, a CZ550. Could you share some of your loads with us?

Thanks,

redleg

To Redleg :

Powder Grs Case Bull w Type Vel.

Vithavuory
K 140 81 RWS 500 grs Hor.SP 636
K 140 84 RWS 500 grs Hor.SP 629
K 140 88 RWS 500 grs Hor.SP 652
K 140 90 RWS 500 grs Hor.SP 670

With 90 grs of K 140 , the recoil become stiff and unpleasant to shoot at the range : you can add with safety more powder , in step of 1 gr , I had no signs of high pressure : easy extraction , rounded corners of primers , no loose primer pocket ,...
This is the first series of loads ,totally invented and experimented : I had no manual with loads for 460 G & A Long .I think you should be able to find Vith powders ; Midsouth and others Companies carry them.
I had a lot of problems with RCBS , about the exact dimensions of the dies .
What your experience about dies ?
Bye
Tatoo

tatoo Sir,

I haven't loaded for the 460 G&A yet, only formed some cases...I need to get the rifle back from the gunsmith before passing judegement on the RCBS form and loading dies. I hope everything turns out OK. I think my first attempts at loads will be with RL15 powder. I'll post results here, but I am probably 4 months off still with the rifle still at the gunsmith.

regards,

redleg

tatoo,

Please don't misunderstand me. Though I have formed cases, they are only for function testing. The next cases I form should be done with the rifle re-chambering work done so that correct headspace is assured. At that time I will know if the dies are a problem.

redleg