The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Re: A quick ? about the .600 OKGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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George is correct. I only provided simulated data, which matches very closely to several independant sources for nearly identical cases. I sincerely hope that George will post the actual velocities his chronograph records and not include a "Weatherby" factor to boost the old ego! I seriously doubt that the loads provided thus far will do signficantly better than my software calculations predicted. Unfortunately, I doubt I will ever be able to obtain correlation data. This sight is full of overly optimistics ballistic data, the only reason I can comprehend for it is personal ego. Kinda like statements like, the 600 NE is a slow push compared to the fast jab of the 378 Weatherby magnum. When the actual recoil velocities are considered (recoil velocity IS the speed of the "push") the recoil velocity of the 600 NE is around 20 fps while the 378 WM is only about 14.5 fps. Obviously, the 600 NE kicks FAR harder and FAR FASTER than the 378 WM aka MORE VIOLENTLY. Of course another explanation is that the individual doing the shooting actually is in shock from the 600 NE and not feeling the recoil (similar to the effects of novacaine), while they are not shocked by the 378 WM. If this is the case they should cease firing the 600 NE before serious, permanent nerve damage results! ASS_CLOWN | ||
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That would be a VERY compressed load, Ed. Say something along the lines of 115%+ compression. Similar to the Hornaday Light and Heavy Magnum loads, I should think. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Quote: That's all you ever do, Ass Clown. Pull answers out of your ass that you have no first hand knowledge or experience to back up. You keep pretending and we will keep laughing.  | |||
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Ok, I just got back from the range. I have pics and video of shooting and chrono results. I have no way of posting video. You will just have to believe what I say. I can record the tape to VHS and send it to someone to digitize it and post it, if someone wants to. All loads with Fed 215 primers and 3-shot averages: 155 grains of H4350, 900gr WW RN, avg. 2095fps 160 grains of H4350, 900gr WW RN, avg. 2159fps 155 grains of H414, 900gr WW RN, avg. 2036fps This was all I had with me, and it was plenty! I had no IMR 7828 loads with me. I will, just for fun, load some up for next time. I used Saeed's data for .600NE for the H4350 info. He has a 24" barreled Heym in .600NE. My OverKill is 23". His avg. for 160grs of H4350 is 2014fps. Mine was 2159fps. Higher velocity from the 3-groove barrel? You be the judge. Rob's max loads with H414 are with 170grs. I will try some 160gr and 165gr loads next time. The recoil at 2150 is starting to become "heavy". Saeed claims 2180 with 170grs of H4350, I might have to work up to it. I believe 2150fps is over 9000fpe. This is starting to get interesting! I shot my .416Rigby before and after. After the .600, it was like shooting a .300win. The same as shooting a .416, then a .300win! PS, I chrono-ed the Rigby and I'm getting an honest 2500fps average with 105grs. of H4831sc and a 400gr Hornady soft. Ruger M77 RSM. | |||
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George, Thank you for posting this useful information. To remind everyone of my estimates with a 170 gr load of H414. Quote: Looking over your chrony numbers, looks likes to me like the simulation will be close. It is the fun you are having the really matters though. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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It might be close, but I think with 15 grs more of H414 I might get more than 173fps added to what I have now. With H4350 I should be able to make 2250 no problem, I just don't know if I want that much recoil! I do agree that it will be a compressed load. 155grs of H414 is just below the bullet. If you shake the shell next to your ear you can hear some noise, but there's not a whole bunch more room in there. By the way, HuntAmerica.com's recoil calculator says for a 13lb rifle, shooting a 900gr bullet, with 160grs of powder, and a muzzle velocity of 2150, you get 156ft-lbs of recoil energy at 27fps! This of course does not take into consideration the brake. I'm positive that the brake works and helps with recoil. http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/ | |||
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George, I NEVER doubted the recoil would be impressive! By the way, tweaked the model to match up exactly with your chrony results. The latest prediction for the 170 grains of H414 is: Muzzle velocity - 2222 fps Chamber pressure - 42,284 psi (max avg) The muzzle energy of your 160g H4350 load (2159 fps) is 9306 lb-ft. Personally, I did not think the model did too badly, considering it's closes correlation study was to a 577 NE 3". Enjoy yourself, and thanks again for sharing the data. By the way, H4350 (better yet IMR4350) will speed that old Rigby of your up A LOT!   ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Holy Cow, I just love nearly 5 TONS of every being banted about... The fact is, there are exactly 2 600's up and running... and they are near unknowns to the world.. i've never seen a gun that didn't run ALOT faster with 15 grains of powder added... not shoulder fired anyway... even 50 bmg loads jump for that. remember, that a TEN percent increase in powder.. most load dev is one or 2 percent.... then again, at the pressures this is running, i think a fella will run out of shoulder before the gun runs out of speed... much like the 577 trex.. sure, it can be loaded to flying gun velocities... and then you can't shoot it... load it down to 577 or there abouts, and it's a pussy cat... okay, so it's bad luck to calla lion a pussy cat... jeffe | |||
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Quote: jeffeosso, a 90 fps increase at the velocities we are talking about, with a 900 grain bullet is a SIGNIFICANT INCREASE in energy. By the way, that is what is all about, ENERGY! It takes a large amount of energy to accelerate a 900gr bullet from 2036 fps to 2222 fps. I wager this energy level is mighty close to 15 grains of H414, or more accurately the energy increase from 155 grains of H414 to 170 grains of H414. I could agree more about the over emphasis on muzzle velocity with the cartridge. I never once stated that anything more than 2100 fps was needed. Actually, I think that 2000 fps is more than adequate for the "OVERKILL" title. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Ass Clown - Are you telling us that as velocity increases, so does ENERGY?  What a revelation that will be to everyone! Newsflash - Most of us have understood this since grade school, Scott. But I understand your need to try to look important.   | |||
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Pecos old boy, you are so close to understanding  , but alas you are wrong.  Energy DOES NOT increase with velocity, it is the other way around! As you increase the energy ( potential energy ) in the powder ( this is accomplished by increasing the powder charge weight sitting below a given bullet weight ) you also increase the kinetic energy released upon ignition of said powder charge. This increase in kinetic energy release amounts to an increase in velocity of the bullet, as long as, you are not increasing bullet weight at the same time you are increasing the powder charge. In the most simple terms, the energy entering the system (load in the chamber) must equal the energy leaving the system (bullets exiting the muzzle). The actual calculations are a tiny bit more involved, but the preceeding statement describes exactly what is being computed. If you understand that, there may be some hope for your old bones yet! Internal ballistics is a thermodynamic event. As such it adheres to the "First Law of Thermodynamics", which is illustrated in the preceeding discussion. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Quote: Would you mind explaining how "energy" increases of a, say 900gr bullet, without velocity increasing? So, please present your "formula" on how a given weight can change in it's energy state without a change in it's velocity... Then again, you still believe "absolute pressure" has something to do with velocity.. when it's the are UNDER that curve. So, until you demonstrate how a given bullet weight can gain "energy" without gaining velocity, please don't post again until then... or hell freee's over... goodbye jeffe | |||
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jeffeosso, First let me say, please read my posts above 50 times, or until you have learned how to read, as I clearly stated that velocity WILL INCREASE for a given bullet mass if THE POTENTIAL ENERGY IS INCREASED! For more information you can google search "first law or thermodynamics". If that is too much trouble here it is in algebraic (and a VERY simplistic form I might add): Quote: Where: Qin = heat into the system Win = work into the system Qout = heat out of the system Wout = work out of the system What that says is this: Bullet mass = 900 grains. If you want it to go faster, you will need to introduce more potential energy to the system (Qin + Win). Layman terms: You want 900 grain bullet to go faster, you need to put more gun powder in case! Do you understand? I have been very patient and respectful to you (and Pecos), even though it is quite clear you do not have the first comprehension of how a thermodynamic expansion works. So I have tried to explain it. All I ask is that you please display the same level maturity in return. If you do not understand I will try and explain it, but understand this is not HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS! It is far far beyond that! I guess I am trying to say that the explanation is VERY involved. So my thinking was to keep the discussion VERY macroscopic and simple, and attempt only to explain the concept , NOT the application. I adopted this approach primarily for the benefit of those that may be interested in understanding ONLY the underlying principles at work. The application of the law requires a considerable amount of work, and frankly I don't feel like typing in 80 to 100 pages, scanning in several charts (nor do I wish to publish the mathematical expressions defining the curves presented on these charts), etc. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Jeffe, I think what he's trying to say is powder is "stored energy" and to increase velocity you must increase the amount of stored energy. Christ, I think I understand an AssClown! Edit: That's what I get for trying to read and post while busy at work. | |||
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ASS Clown - The topic being discussed was the BULLET'S VELOCITY & ENERGY. In your usual head up your ass way, you have suddenly shifted gears and are now babbling about the amount of energy required to accellerate a bullet to a particular velocity. Or are you just trying to dodge the fact you know know what you are talking about with this smoke scream? Here's the formula I use. AC = BS with AC being you and BS being Bullshit. What's your next great theory? Trigger spring tension? The harder the firing pin strikes the primer, the faster the bullet travels? Once again, I think my AC = BS formula would cover that situation as well. Arguing with you is like talking to a fence post. (Pine, of course) | |||
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I applaud your efforts in this sad case, even though I have placed the circus anus on ignore and enjoy only your priceless ripostes. You are performing a valuable public service, whether the subject ceases to post his nonsense or has his 19th nervous breakdown--I am indifferent on the subject of which is more to be desired. But I believe I have detected a flaw in your higher mathematics, professor: AC = BS SQUARED, as Herr Doktor Einstein himself proved in his celebrated theory of General Asinity. Thank you for your efforts in our behalf. | |||
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Quote: Ass Clown, you are APTLY NAMED.  I think you need to take you "genius" to another website where they can appreciate your cosmic intellect. Clearly you cast your pearls before swine here on AR. None of the members of this site are worthy to walk in your shadow. | |||
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George, don't worry... you don't acutally understand the bullshit he's trying to throw... if POTENTIAL energy had anything to do with MUZZLE ENERGY, then liquifing h1000 and haveing it solid cast into the case would result in higher energy... or.. if kenetic energy of the powder had anything to do with it, loading the case full of the same h1000, but normal, and it burning outside the barrel would increase the energy. this is a typical case where the clot has no understanding of what makes up muzzle energy, when the discussion is on muzzle velocity, and then it attempts to change the discussion to where it thinks it understands.... as i told it's wife (!?!), the blot, "pressure" doesn't mean SQUAT to MV, neither does potential... since the equation for ME favors velocity as a variable, only area under the pressure curve means anything, it attempted to change the discussion to energy.. . It patently has no understanding of guns geyound what it can find in a search engine for example, it would be possible to EXPLODE a rifle with a load of bluedot, from PRESSURE, but the MV would be far lower than an optimized powder. the point i raised is this is a 10% increase in powder, in a round only you and rob have ever loaded for.. can you hit 2400... i bet you can.. can you shoot that load? I doubt I could. does the clot have a rifle that hits 200ft/lbs.. i equally doubt that. it sure has been patient.. a MENTAL patient jeffe | |||
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Mr. Lex, thank you, sir, for that correction in my formula. I confess the clown drove me to distraction and I misstated my own formula. I stand red-faced before you. Now if I were like the Ass Clown, I would just blame it on a typo. Or if I were his wife, I would say someone stole my password and typed this error. I've always figured it takes a real man to admit he made a mistake. Perhaps this is why you never see the Ass Clown admit he is full of shit and hasn't SEEN half the rifles he babbles about...much less OWNED or fired them. His solution to his own stupidity is simply to change member names. | |||
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Jeffe, Thank god! I was getting worried! It must be the effects of recoil on my little mind. With the Past pad, my shoulder feels fine. But I had a pisser of a headache today. | |||
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George, You have grasped the concept! Thank God one gentleman understood, my time wasn't wasted. jeffeosso, no BS just FACT! You are way over your head on this one, and since you obviously are here to beat your chest and play the arse, I shall cease trying to explain this relatively simple concept to you. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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yes, assclot, please stop trying to explain your point of view... it's not shared by anyone else jeffe | |||
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I can get 180 gr of H414 or W-760 in the OK case I have here, very little compression and bullet seated .4 in into the case.With a slow twist barrel like 1 to 22 that figures out to 2400 plus fps.All of you testing hairy loads,in whatever cal, need a 50 lb tripod that locks onto barrel, for chrono work, then there is no pain.I intend to use a 100 lb tripod for 4 bore testing.Ed | |||
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Ed, Did you use a drop tube or vibrate the case? | |||
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Hey ASS_CLOWN. There's a big difference between potential energy, and chemical energy. You are increasing the chemical energy by adding more powder to the case. Should you take a cartridge off the floor, and put it up on a high shelf, then you would have increased its potential energy. As in: Quote: Instead of going out and researching those 80-100 pages you talked about, I suggest you go back to Physics 101, and study your definitions used in mechanics. Regards, Scott | |||
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George-I vibrate the case, while seating bullet.Ed. | |||
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While I admit I know nothing on the BIG bores such as the 600, I have a question,if more powder is what you are after why not use a drop tube such as what we use for black powder? With the big 715 grain cast its the only way I can get 113grains of FFG in the 45-120. OR would smokeless not act the same way? | |||
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Scott, You have much to learn young grasshopper! Much INDEED!!! Your internet search netted you one explanation of A form of Potential Energy. Now go back to your bogus sales pitches, Marketing man, and leave this place, at once! ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Quote: Talking to yourself again, troll? Of course you won't speak of where you are completely and totally so far off the rails that you can't see your way back, but you'll bray like a jackass caught in barbwire about were you think you have a clue. I've got a couple quick questions for you 1: aren't you a german citizen? 2: aren't you married to judy 3: aren't you from michigan? 4: aren't you from some southern state that rots all woods? 5:Aren't you also the amazing master of everty known technology, but can't figure out how to take a picture of yourself with a digial camera? 6: Don't you variously own NO guns, then everything that is over 375 caliber, then just one 50 beowolf, and then none again, all at the same time? 7: I guess if 1 and 2 above are accurate, then all these guns ACTUALLY belong to judy/diane... the Dr/Waitress 8: aren't you the fella that posted that his daddy made him a mod70 supreme in 450 watts, and then tried to claim it was made EXACTLY like a cz550... and posted a picture of an AHR rifle in 500 AHR - calling it your m70 450 watts, and THEN tried to claim Ed had posted some "old pictures" of your rifle... and THEN finaly fessed up that you didn't OWN that rifle, and yeah, it was a CZ 550 that was made and owned by AHR.... Just checking to see which liar is using the "ass_clot" handle this morning.. jeffe | |||
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2100, 2200 ,2300 ,2400fps who cares? I think 450 grain bullets at over 2100 fps will do the job on anythink I can think of. 900grains doing the same fps must be well "overkill" I see the point of the whole thing is Rob designed built and fired this beast from start to finish. That is quite a feat in my book. I have enjoyed reading the posts from the start; enough so that I have started one. I think its great George also is sharing info with us all. I doubt if I dont screw my project up that I will even push it over 2200fps but Im thinking that would be just about enough. Good show George I only hope I can build a working 600OK that looks 1/2 as nice as yours! Talked to pac nor last night they have my barrel and are threading it for the Enfield and while they have it taking it to 24inches. I have the action 90% inletted to the wood. When the barrel is back ill give head spacing a shot and finish up the feed work. If I dont screw anything up I hope to shoot mine before fall. If I mess up I will be looking for a Smith that will mount my barrel to another Enfield action I bought. George Your guy do that type of work? Or only entire weapons? Dean | |||
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Ass Clown - I think we have learned about all we need to know about you. It would take you 80 to 100 type written pages to "explain" the fact that the more fuel you have, the more energy you have available. That's really profound. Does this mean the more gasoline I put in my car, the further I can drive it? You are such a wit, Scott. | |||
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jeffeosso, the questions you asked have NOTHING to do with the validity of my statements, which are based upon a CORRECT applications of the applicable LAWS of PHYSICS (sorry jeffeosso NO "points of view" here). To answer your questions: Quote: Now please go back to telling how you are the smartest and most talented amateur gunsmith on the planet, with the possible exception of Robgunbuilder. I am really quite tired of your ignorant rants regarding topics you are poorly suited to discuss. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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>>2: aren't you married to judy NO not married to "judy"<< WHEW!!! I would HATE to think that an ASS CLOWN was going to walk in the front door this evening! | |||
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Dave- Yes a drop tube will do a good job also in packing in the ball powder in a 600 OK.. Ed. | |||
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I think AC uses a drop tube to pack his cranium so full of BS | |||
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Paul - Thats one looooooonnnnnngggggg drop tube. | |||
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And a highly compressed charge at that! | |||
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John... I think I just figured out Hornady lightmags.. and the bs required to pack a trolls head so dense with BS that it's imprevous to shoulder fired weapons... 100,000 psi hydrolic ram drop tubes!!! jeffe | |||
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Jeffe, is that 100,000 psi ram adding to potental energy, chemical energy or BS energy. My vote is for BS energy. | |||
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Jeffe, I would say Scott/Ass Clown's, 50 Beowulf has about as much to do with Big Bore rifles as a .22 short has to do with varmit rifles. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Re: A quick ? about the .600 OK
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