Greetings,

I am curious why we do not hear more of J.D.'s Ruger #1 conversions to 577 NE and 600 JDJ, (577 NE case blown out to accept the .620" projectile).

It seems he is the only one doing these while other 'smiths feel the Ruger action is not big enough or strong enough for such cartridges.

His prices are not out of reach and, if his conversions are reliable, I wonder why they are not more popular.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

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~Holmes

I can only tell you why I have never dealt with the man. Though many people practice self promotion and embelish the truth from time to time, Mr. Jones takes it too far. A less polite person might call him a lier, but since I can't back it up I will not. Again, I have talked to the man a few times and read his print. I have not had any work done by his shop only because I don't trust him, not because of the quality of his work or anything concrete.

DOC

Like I said in an earlier post... from my understanding it is breach-thrust that is the concern with cartridges larger/more impulse momentum then a 500 N.E. 3". I have not done calculated this... but it wouldnt surprise me.
I have "called" about his prices on the 577 conversion, and unless they have gone down, I thought them to be unreasonable. Also I had a hard time understanding who I was talking to, I felt I wasnt getting a strait answer. What some times bothers me is why when you look at a catalog, companies like SSK cant give you a price(or a list to calculate a price) for their more expensive BASIC PACKAGES. SSK will tell you "call" for prices so as (I believe) you wont be discuraged. Like Doc said "trust" or even honesty would be nice... the consumer will eventually need to know the price, and if you are not competitive with your price for what its worth... maybe you should re-evaluate who you are.

J.D. can indeed be difficult to communicate with. He suffers no lack of ego!

The lack of basic package pricing is frustrating. I think his personal style dictates a one-on-one arena with his prospective client.

I initiated a rifle project with SSK about a year ago. It was put on hold at my request due to some extensive health problems on my part. I have a large deposit placed with him and I am ready to get going now. (the deposit was sent voluntarily - J.D. does not usually take payment before the project is finished)

I originally intended to do a 577 NE or 600 JDJ, however, I am truly concerned about the ability of the Ruger #1 to handle these cartridges after reading what you folks and other 'smiths have opined.

The rifle will not be a DG firearm, however, it will be used regularly and not simply hung on a wall. I had planned to cast bullets for reduced loads and try some paper patching with the big bore.

I have talked with Dale Story and he has agreed to help me weight the stock without compromising it's integrity. The goal was to reach a finished weight of 13 lbs.

In light of the expertise I have discovered on this forum regarding big rifles I am tempted to change the project and go with a milder cartridge such as J.D.'s 50 x 3 1/4 Sharps.

I have always adored the single shot big bore rifles, however, I do not want to waste my money on a firearm that cannot be used regularly with a proper margin of safety.

I have fired several of J.D.'s big bore Contenders and such but I have never seen one of his rifles. He claims he can put them together with the big Nitro cartridges and they will stay together, but now I wonder.

It is difficult to discount the opinions of other respected gunsmiths who are well versed in big bore rifle construction regardless of what I hear from SSK.

Thank you for your comments gentlemen.

Regards,

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~Holmes

Holmes,

As the personality behind the outfit has already been described, no reason to re-hash that. I think it is a big reason you don't hear about more folks using his big guns, there are more smiths out there, and many with much more experience with the big rifles, not to mention, much easier to deal with. It is also my understanding that JD is not a gunsmith, so is essentially just a salesman. I'd much rather talk to the smith that is doing the work and understands the gun, then someone who toutes how good it is.

As far as the #1 handling the round, it just depends on how hot you want to load it. In regards to JD's rounds, there has certainly been more then one contender frame stretched by someone getting carried away with one of his 444 based rounds, as well as the other wildcats out there.

So, the same comment would apply to the #1, if you have to have a monster masher 577 bore, don't do it on the #1, if you can live with the constraints of the #1 action, then procede, if you can't, look at other options. If you are looking at a nice large lead slinger, with some margin of safety, then I'd lean towards the 500 NE, to me, the #1 just seems more in line with NE rounds then the american bufalo rounds, but thats just my take on it. The other up side of the 50 caliber is there are lots, and lots of bullet molds out there, from 350 gr on up past 700 gr.

Paul H.,

You make some excellent points and, as part of the aging process, I have learned how to take good advice.

I had considered various calibres, e.g., 470 Nitro, 500 Jeffrey, as well as the 577 x 2.75 that Seyfried is so fond of.

Quite honestly, I completely overlooked the 500 NE. The bullet selection you note is a definite plus. Additionally, there is enough of a safety margin regarding structural integrity of the Ruger #1 that I would be able to "play" with the cartridge quite a bit. This is important to me as the rifle will be used quite regularly for all aspects of pleasure shooting.

Another positive to going with the 500 NE is rifle weight. I would think a finished weight of 11 lbs. would be fine with this cartridge. A 26" barrel is planned as I have long arms and this length works well for me in offhand shooting with the #1 Ruger.

I have discovered my library to be devoid of any reloading data for the 500 NE. The original ballistics are unknown to me. I believe the A-Square manual is the only recent publication that has what I need. Perhaps I can find a copy of it somewhere for sale.

Thank you for your comments and I shall keep the forum posted regarding the project.

Regards,

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~Holmes

You got it Holmes... My next R-1 custom is going to be a 500 N.E. 3", and I am starting it right now. I have been running into weight problems as mine will estimate in about 8 lbs . A friend of mine has a farq. 500 3" he lets me shoot and hunt with on occasion. I realy like the 500. good luck.

Folks, putting JD's personality aside for a moment, let me say there seems to be some real misconceptions running in the thread. The Ruger is a 90,000 PSI proofed action, with reccomended loads in the 60,000 PSI range to be used on a regular basis! The 577 NE is a very low pressure round,of about 35,000 PSI, as are all cartridges designed to be used in double rifles. The Kynoch factory load for the 577 NE 3" pushes the 750 gr bullet at 2050 FPS,with 100 grs of CORDITE, out of a 28" barrel. This load only generates 14.0 Metric tons of chamber pressure, or around 35,000 PSI.

The 500 NE generates more pressure at around 16.0 Metric tons, or 40,000 Psi The Ruger action can handle any of the NE rounds, as far as pressure is concerened. The No1 is far stronger than the old Farquharson, and all these rounds are still being shot in these old IRON rifles!

The concern Smallfry has about Breech thrust, is not a problem. The rearward thrust of the old low pressure NE rounds with streight sided cases is almost NIL. The common 30-06 has many time the rearward thrust than any of the NE rounds. The thrust you need to worry about, is the rearward thrust on your shoulder!

P.O. Ackley did some pressure effect test the results of which can be read starting on page 137 of his Handbook For Reloaders, Vol 1. He found that a streight sided case had very little breech thrust. A mod 94 Win lever gun was chambered for a 30-30 Ackley IMP and the locking lugs were removed from the rifle. The rifle was strapped down ten inches ahead of the action, and the bolt only held closed by the weight of the rifle resting on the lever. The rifle was subjected to load after load, with ever higher pressures, till the rifle blew up. The rifle blew the sides of the chamber apart, and never opened the action. A new barrel was installed in the action, and fired some more. Everyone knows the mod 94 win is a 35,000 PSI action, yet it stood well over 52,000 PSI chamber pressure, with NO LOCKING LUGS, before it blew. On page 147 Ackley states:

"There is plenty of room for testing along these lines, but the test described, seem to indicate that a very small percentage of the CHAMBER pressure was transfered to the breech bolt in the form of thrust!"

The Ruger No1's main strength is in the breech block containing very high pressure. Wall thickness is what is needed to contain chamber pressure,and herein may be the bug with very large diameter rounds of high pressure, but none of the NEs meet that criteria! The Ruger No1 has a larger diameter barrel at the breech end than the Mod 70, or Mauser 98.

The problem with the other gunsmiths downing JD's conversions is, first they don't like to work on Ruger No1s, and second most do not understand the concept of chamber pressure, and it's effect on an action. Professional jelousy is another facter,IMO!

SSK people can be a little nose in-the-air with their attitude at times, and their prices are all out of line, also only my opinion! I do not deal with them, and one can get a No1 rebarreled by Bowen to any of the NE rounds that will fit into the action with some modification.

There is an article in the Sept issue of RIFLE magazine, on page 42 about custom Ruger No1s and a 577 NE 2 1/4" built by Bowen. Rifle's little comment reads
"The Ruger No1 rifles are a fantastic way to own an exotic, big-bore British Nitro Express, on a very reasonale budget"

My pick for a one No1 rifle chambered for a NE round, would be the 500 NE 3" and a very good recoil pad!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 07-06-2001).]

MacD37
Pressure alone cannot be correlated to breach thrust, which is a product of projectile weight velocity and surface area. It is true that the R-1 would have no problems taking the pressure. The concern however is if the action/block will "shoot of the face"/ "crush"/ or stretch. Like I said earlier, I never have sat down and done the math... though if I found the results to have a wide enough safety margin I MIGHT do it, I donno I would really have to talk to someone who has if thats the case.
I am not sure what PO Ackley was measuring, but breach thrust has nothing to do with case design. With the 94... it is interesting to note that if block and the slip plain less than 9.0 deg the action will not open REGARDLESS, due to the fictional coefficient of the steel parts. This not even considering the camming action of the mech.
enough said.

Let me correct myself... case head area is a factor, but but to say that case design unknowing of dimensions has nothing to do with breach thrust.

Case design has a significant affect on back thrust, so does the chamber surface finish, and the case itself. The folks that know the most about back thrust are the folks making custom t/c contender barrels, because the frame is weak, and to maximize what can be obtained out of the gun requires a good knowledge of all these factors.

Back thrust is not just the pressure the cartridge operates at over the area of the internal case head. Depending on the taper of the case, and the strength of the case, the back thrust is notably less then this. The problem is if you use "weak" brass, and exceed its yield limit, the brass with stretch and flow, and increase back thrust.

So the question is, how hot can you load, and for how long. Can a 577 NE 3" #1 be safely loaded to 750 gr @ 2000 fps, 2200 fps, or 2500 fps? I don't know the answer, but for those considering that gun, you need to find out, and figure how hot you want to losd it. Some folks like the grins and giggles provided by stiff loads, and hence this combo wouldn't be for them. Personally, I'd want to be able to at least obtain 2000 fps w/ 750's.

Holmes,
There was a guy who went by the handle Piper on HA I think. Said he had a 4 bore muzzleloader and 600JDJ amongst other things.
I remember him saying he was getting loads of over 10,000ftlbs from his 600 on the Ruger#1.You might want to try and find him if he is still around.

Karl.

MacD37

My sentiments exactly.

Also there are several guys who have rechambered their .458 No. 1's to .460 Weatherby, I think they're all still alive and 2 eyed.

MacD37;

I have that "Rifles" article you refer to memorized!

Bowen chambers the #1 for most NE rounds up to the 577 2.75. I believe Seyfried was referring to the smaller NE rounds such as the 470, 500, etc., when he made that statement in the article. The 600 NE is simply too big dimensionally for the #1. If it were feasible, I'm sure J.D. would be doing it! Ney, J.D. would HAVE to do it!

Bowen also highly recommends countersinking the safety on the 577 NE #1 conversions for improved ejection. This mod alone adds $500 to the conversion. It seems to me the safety button could simply be "melted" to achieve improved clearance. But then, I am not a rifle builder.

smallfry:

I am going to try and find out more information from SSK regarding back thrust with these conversions. I will be talking with J.D. again next week. Last year, I got a few client contacts from SSK that had the 577 #1 rifles. When I asked these gentlemen how their rifles were holding up, I was told the same story by all three of them; that is, they had fired the rifles but four or five times and that was it!

Karl;

I shall try and locate this Piper gentleman and see if I can garner some insight. Thank you for the heads up. My first inclination was indeed the 600 JDJ. I have always wanted a 600 NE and this seemed a viable compromise. Sort of a poor man's 600 Nitro.

The cartridge apparently realises a velocity around the 1800 fps range. I am not a velocity freak but, I would like to have 2000-2100 fps in whatever round I select. Additionally, I think the 600 JDJ or the 577 3" conversions need a finished weight of 13-14 pounds to be truly shootable. Tough goal with a #1. J.D. and I spent many telephone conversations arguing about brakes and counter coil devices. My dream is a classic British appearance which would be destroyed with the counter coil built into the stock. I am also not interested in having a brake on this rifle. I don't think either aforementioned cartridge would be usable in a 12 pound rifle without the additional recoil reducing implements. The 500 NE really strikes me as the best candidate when considering recoil, action integrity, and finished weight of 11-12 pounds.

I want my rifle to sport a 26" barrel and will feature aperature sights; either Ashley or NECG offerings.

This whole project may seem silly to many as I will use the rifle primarily on jackrabbits with an occasional elk and moose hunt. I am currently buying points towards a Bison hunt for the future.

I have more work to do before I make my final decision but the 500 NE 3" is looking like the most viable cartridge. There is certainly nothing wrong with a 600 grain pill traveling at 2150 fps!

Regards,

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~Holmes