Thanks to you two for the reminder to try the H4831SC and the BELL brass versus Norma brass.

I got about the same case measurements as Spring did on BELL (3.247") versus Norma (3.235"). I did not bother to trim them, just shot them as they were, less than the max 3.250".

Surrendering to better judgement, I went directly to the load that jjs found best in his Merkel, since I am shooting a Merkel also (23.6"/600mm barrels).

H4831SC: 110.0 grains with GM215M primer and the baseline bullet ( 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP, crimped on cannelure) with no filler. This seems to be about a 97% load in the BELL brass and about a 93% load in the Norma brass, which has about 4% greater internal volume:
BELL velocity = 2114 fps
Norma velocity = 2057 fps

RL-15: 87.0 grains, 5 grains of Dacron filler, other components same:
BELL velocity = 2045 fps
Norma velocity = 2025 fps

Federal Factory load with Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer: 2104 fps (gun was tilted upward and butt tapped to settle powder against primer for each shot) ... This is the load these Merkels are regulated for.

Temperature was 83 degrees F

After putting 4 shots of each above load over the chronograph as quickly as practical, barrels got too hot to hold comfortably a couple of times and required a couple of walkabouts while they cooled.

I have decided I do not like Dacron filler with RL-15, and will only use the H4831SC load, however, I will place one thickness of 3/16" foam air conditioner filter over the powder before seating the bullet to eliminate that annoying shake, rattle and roll of powder in the case, even with the H4831SC. These thin discs are easily and uniformly punched out with a chamfer sharpened 50 BMG case, and weigh next to nothing.

I did have excellent results previously with the RL-15 and a 1/2" to 3/4" thick foam wad, but I had to use 92 grains of RL-15 in Norma brass, and that raises some eyebrows, mine too.

That is how it is, with my Merkel and my brass.

Just to further the legend of H4831SC Extreme, consider the old A-Square data, that must have been for the old H4831, and it seems little changed in burn rate and charge weights for the latest Hodgdon H4831:

Barrel: 26"
bullet: 500 grain Monolithic solid
brass: A-Square
primer: CCI-250
powder: H4831
charge: 104.0 grains/ 2002 fps/ 27,300 PSI
charge: 109.0 grains/ 2075 fps/ 32,600 PSI
charge: 113.0 grains/ 2167 fps/ 36,100 fps

Pressures with RL-15 for equivalent velocities woud be 6000 to 7000 psi higher.

The 109 grain Load of H4831 had the smallest sd and ES for pressure of any load they tested, and was near best for velocity sd and ES too.

My experience with various bullets and RL-15 loads:

The longer bullets of same weight give higher velocity with same powder charger.
Solids and harder "softs" give slightly higher velocities than same weight Woodleigh RNSP Weldcore for the same powder charge.

The Woodleigh RNSP Weldcore is about the shortest and softest bullet one will encounter in the .470 NE. The old Barnes RNSP is a close match in length, bearing surface and friction, but has no cannelure for crimping.

Any other bullet I use is bound to give me a higher velocity, as I set about looking for the solid load now, so a drop down to the 109 grain charge of H4831SC will be next with some solid, and it will have to be a Flat Nosed Monometal to float my boat.

OK RIP, all those numbers are interesting, and valuable enough that I printed your excelent post!

However, I, for one, would like to know how those loads regulated in your Merkel! I believe the speeds are irrelavent if they don't regulate. I just bought a 470NE Safari Merkel double, and am interested in any thing found in working up loads for this particular Make/rifle.

All the load data, and die set went with my A&N 470NE when I sold it ten yrs ago. Come on guy, give us a little taste of what happened on the paper!

RIP, Let's see a target at 100 yards. Believe your numbers are right for a very good composite group from one of the mid-40s doubles, but a good group, especially with iron sights, is something to behold.
Regards, Tim

Excuse me gentlemen, I was just going for velocity record of these loads in my gun. I assure you the center of the 50 yard target was pretty well shot out when I was done, but I have no group for you.

3 years ago, I reported here on my Merkel which shot well with 92 grains of RL-15 and packing foam filler wads.
I can't recommend that load.

The H4831SC is right at the velocity I was looking for, and ease of loading is great. It throws from a meter AND trickles well for weighed charge loads.

I will reload some more with this powder and shoot for group.

I can't tell any difference in the recoil between the 110 grain H4831SC versus the RL-15 loads of my past.

And yes, the 3/16" thick air conditioner filter is all it takes to get rid of the shake rattle and roll of powder in this near-full case.

FWIW, my Merkel has a factory test target, with 4 shots of TBSH solid Federal factory loads (so they claim), that measured 1.6 cm (center-to-center) at 50 meters.

I once got a lucky 1.6" four-shot group at 100 yards, with this Merkel, and noted it was crossed. Crossing point at 50 meters. Good enough. I will be shooting at 50 yards.

Cheers,

RIP:

Glad to hear you had good results with the H4831sc. Somehow I knew you would! As you know, I have been using the 110 grain load with the Woodleighs, Barnes Banded, and North Fork Cup Points all 500 grain bullets.

You are correct that velocity will increase with the longer (mono-metal bullets). Depending upon temp., etc I am getting a nominal 2170 fps with the North Fork Cup Points and somewhere around 2130 fps with the Barnes Banded if my memory is correct.

I have loaded the Woodleighs and Barnes Banded with 111 grains of H4831sc and that load shot very well also but decided to stick with the 110 grain load but they all seem to work well anywhere from 108 grains of H4831sc to 110 grains...the groups tended to "pull in" with my Merkel as charge was increased. I have shot some 50 yard targets that are almost to good to be true! I shot the North Fork Cup Points at 100 yards and was very pleased with the two shot groups...all I have attempted at this stage.

I just wish Mike at North Fork would make some more CUP POINTS..I have to save my last box for Tanzania this July...

jjs,
Thanks again.
You saved me some wear and tear. I have finally seen the light. H4381SC will likely be the last trial for me in .470 NE.

108 grains with the North Fork CUP Point and Flat Point would be great, I reckon.

The GSC FN is great too, if they can be found.

BTW, a few of those bullets hit dead center at 50 yards, but I was only verifying the velocities with H4831 and giving my rifle one more chance with Dacron and a lesser charge of RL-15 than my previous required 92.0 grain charge with a thick foam wad.

I really don't like the snowstorm effect with Dacron either.

H4831SC, yeah, that's the ticket!

RIP:

Possibly you will convert a few more guys from RL15 to a powder not requiring filler. The load I use also regulated very well in a Chapius 470.

I appreciate the "thanks" but being new to the 470 I picked up some recommended reading, from guys that post here, that included G. Wrights Book, A-Square Manual, and some old post on AR from the late George Hoffman all of which seemed to point to powders without fillers. Mr. Hoffman's recommendation of H4831 was more than enough for me!

Regards, jjs

RIP,
Thanks for the great report! It's interesting that you did notice a slight difference in speed using different brass. Was there any measurable difference in POI? I would suspect that you did see some with the differences you saw in your H4832SC loads (2114 vs. 2057); your RL-15's likely were about the same (2045 vs. 2025).
It's also interesting to see that different guns do have such different results shooting the same thing. My 470NE, for example, gets higher speeds than you got using less powder than you did. I get consistent speeds of around 2120 when using only 85 grains, vs. your 2057 using 87. I suspect the difference could be the size of the crimp we are using as I was loading up around 88-89 grains of RL-15 getting similar results when shooting uncrimped bullets.
As for H4831SC vs. RL-15, it sounds like the former is working well for you. Since I use the Kynock wads, however, I have found that RL-15 shoots very consistently for me, causing no reason to change at this point.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the data!

Spring,
I was just ripping them off through the chronograph no attention paid to accuracy, just velocity average and spread. I slowed down when the barrels got too hot to handle.

Maybe I have a slow lot of RL-15? Maybe it is brass and gun factors or a combo of all of these?

I do not think that the crimp makes much difference in .470 NE.

I was convinced by this trial that H4831SC with no filler is better than RL-15 with filler, in my combination of gun and components.

See the thread ".470 NE: George Hoffman Memorial Load."

I was pleasantly surprised by adding the thin foam disc to the H4831SC. Decreased velocity spreads and higher velocity. And it seems my rifle shot well with all four bullets tried, velocities from 2116 to 2166 fps with all 500 grainers.

I was also amazed that the Barnes Original soft was the fastest load. This must be related to it's .475" diameter as opposed to .474" for the other bullets tried.

So, gotta factor in that .001" diameter increase, even though it is about as short as the Woodleigh Weldcore, very comparable, except that the Barnes Original will be a fragmentation grenade, about like a "Lion Load."

Also, the GSC had the lowest velocity, though longest length of bullet. No doubt this is due to the decreased friction from .466" shank with .474" driving bands, slightly lower pressures, therefore. Easy on a double rifle's barrels, I'd say.

I did reduce by one grain of powder for the solids (TBSH and GSC).

I use only H4831SC Extreme in the .470 NE now. And thanks again to jjs, another Merkel man. Maybe all Merkels are not exactly alike, but I bet they all work well with H4831SC Extreme.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Also, the GSC had the lowest velocity, though longest length of bullet. No doubt this is due to the decreased friction from .466" shank with .474" driving bands, slightly lower pressures, therefore. Easy on a double rifle's barrels, I'd say.

I have tried to convince the Woodleigh diehards at http://www.nitroexpress.com of this, but they remain incredulous.

500 grains,
I'll take your word on that, and I won't waste any time trying to convince them.

I do not want any steel jacketed solids going down my barrels, in a double rifle, just my idiosyncracy.

Copper is softer, bronze/brass is softer. Both are hard enough to break bone and keep going straight.

The GSC driving bands are undeniably easy on barrels and foul little.

What don't they understand? Must be just stubborn, or blindly loyal to Woodleigh down under.

I still like the Woodleigh RNSP in a double, but want no part of their steel-FMJ-lead-cored-round-nose-solid tumblers in my double rifle ... however they will make nice plinkers in the .470 Mbogo, 500 grains at 2700 fps just for ringing gongs at 300 yards.

500grains:

Based on that post at Nitro Express it seems some guys have had bad experiences with mono-metal bullets of the past and vintage DR. Mono-metal bullets of the past being those without grooves/bands, etc. Until someone acutally does a measured pressure test comparison it will be hard to convince some users of DR of the benefits of the newer style bullets. If I had a vintage DR, I probably would have stayed away from mono-metals as well...because of all the talk about the questionable use of mono-metals in those DR. I have read posts that Chapius does not recommend the use of mono-metals but unsure about that?

After looking at and measuring a North Fork Cup Point, Barnes Banded, Woodleigh Soft it seemed to me the Woodleigh have significantly more contact with the Barrel/rifling...but not having testing equipment other than a chronograph not sure what actual pressure would be.

At the same level of powder charge and everything else being equal the Woodleighs (.474) produce the lowest velocity, next was the Barnes Banded (.474) and finally the North Forks (.475) gave the highest velocity...usually I would equate the higher velocity with higher pressure but not sure in this case???

JJS,

Were they Woodleigh softs or solids which gave the lowest velocity?

In working up loads with various bullets using the same brass, same primer, same powder, same powder charge, I ran into pressure sights first with Barnes non-banded solids, second with Woodleigh solids, and last with GS Custom driving band solids. That seems to say something.

Personally I would not use a Barnes X or Barnes solid in a Chapuis or a vintage gun. But due to ignorance a lot of folks are grouping the GS Custom, Bridger and NF driving band designs along with Barnes even though driving band bullets function completely differently within a barrel than the old Barnes stuff.

Also consider that there are plenty of vintage doubles that have crapped out while shooting Woodleighs, but guys always blame the powder or the filler instead of the bullet. A few months ago there was a discussion of one on nitroexpres.com. I think it was an H&H which blew out a chunk of its barrel. Couldn't the Woodleigh bullet have been part of the problem? A lot of guys don't want that question asked.

500grains:

They were Woodleigh Softs...have not tested the Woodleigh Solids, probably never will as the Barnes Banded and North Forks work well in my DR.

As to the Barnes "old style" mono-metals I agree with you ...I would just as soon stay away from them, however, Barnes in now making the TSX and Banded Solids in .458 and .474 which I have been using...

I did see that post concerning the double that blew a pc. of metal out of the barrel...Talk like that and my lack of knowledge about vintage DR lead me to purchase a new DR.

I have been using banded/grooved mono-metal bullets for more than a year...my experience to date leads me to concluded they are superior in terms of accuracy vs other "hunting bullets" and the terminal performance on game has been fantasic...Against heavy DG give me a mono-metal FN or Cup Point!

Woodleigh softs and solids are defnitely two different animals, in my experience. The Woodleigh soft is a relatively gentle bullet, but still has a lot more bearing surface and obturation than a GS, Bridger or NF.

I have not used the new Barnes banded or TSX bullets. Frankly, I was very disappointed when they were introduced as they bastardize the driving band concept due to the very thick bands that Barnes uses. I asked one of the Barnes R&D guys why they use thick bands instead of thin ones like GS and he said that it costs less to build bullets with thick bands. For the prices Barnes charges, I would expect them to optimize bullet design. They could reduce the size of the bands by about 75% and have an even better bullet.

It's also interesting to note that Barnes tried to remediate the pressuer and barrel damage problem on their monos with the blue coating. I have some blue coated .500 NE solids from Barnes that are .508" diameter brass with the blue stuff sprayed on top. Gotta give them credit for trying.

I suggest that if you are getting a snow storm effect from dacron then you are probably not using enough of it, I get a caliber size plug of dacron with the same load of 87 grs. or RL-15...I have used the new foam wads from Kynoch but I use two of them as opposed to one with that load....

108 grs. of IMR-4831 gives me 2245 FPS in my Searcy, which is Butchs regulation load for my gun, its a little crisp in the recoil dept.

I hunted last year with 85 grs. RL-15, Norma brass, 215 Fed primer, 5 grs. of Dacron and a Woodleigh soft, and Northfork flat nose solid. as both regulated the same in my gun...velocity was 2020 FPS with both, which coorelates with yours pretty close...

I couldn't tell any difference in the killing power at the reduced velocity and recoil was very mild for a .470...yet it is not a maidens carress...It knocked the Buffs right over..

Correction, not Woodliehs, that should read 500 gr. Northfork cup points and flat nose solids..been using Woodleighs so long they just pop up now and then...

Ray,
I was using 5 grains of dacron, same as you, with 87 grains of RL-15. They were packed pretty well full.

I don't doubt your velocity with IMR-4831, as it is a lot faster than H4831SC extreme. I need to stick around 2100 to 2150 fps with about any 500 grainer in my rifle, so the Hodgdon stuff is perfect for a Merkel.

I am glad to see someone else barely cracking 2000 fps with 85 grains of RL-15 and filler.

It seems you and I are in perfect agreement on .470 NE data, we just have different rifles with different likes, it would seem, near as I can tell over the internet.

Ray,
I figured out why you don't notice the "snow storm" of Dacron with each RL-15 shot:

You are oblivious to it because you learned to shoot in black powder days, and it is nothing compared to the smoke of those old .45/70's that you faced the Sioux with at Little Big Horn, when your former commander Custer bit the dust. Custer was Siouxed for incompetence.

Just how did you get out of there alive?
Did you have to dance with wolves or something like that?

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:

Bob,
Thanks for another great Bobicon.