I wonder if somebody could tell me what the safe maximum velocity is for using a P14 action and a full length .505 Gibbs case and .510" 700 grain bullets and a 32" .510" barrel with optimum powder selection?

A year ago somebody posted on Long Range Shooting that the P-14 lugs were too small to use with case heads larger than the standard magnum size (.300 Win. Mag., etc.). More recently it has been suggested that the upper limit for a 600 grain bullet (presumably out of a 22" barrel) is 2230 fps, which suggests 1900 fps out of the same barrel for a 700 grain bullet, and thus perhaps 2100 fps out of a 32" barrel?

I want to get a high velocity to simplify difficulties typical of long-range shooting (range estimation, scope adjustment limits), but I would much rather be safe and avoid the annoyance of short cartridge life.

I am not firmly wedded to 700 gr. M2 ball
bullets. I have been using them for initial development because I found them for $170.00/thousand. They have been reported to have poor accuracy. I have thought of turning lighter, pointier bullets on a lathe, but I am not that far along yet.

I would think that you would be somewhat limited in operating pressure with the P14 action and a 505 Gibbs. Perhaps Robgunbuilder can shed some light on this subject. He has performed all the action strength calculations so he should know what this action can handle.

Axel

the enfield p-14 is perfect for this, and one of the few that can do it. As for loads, each rifle is a system unto itself.

ignore the trollE

If the p14 and p17 are acceptabel for 577 t-rex, then the "piss-ant" 505 gibbs (low pressure, reasonable vel) is not a challenge.

the A2 hannible is a modified p14 or p17.

and so is the rem model 30.

jeffe

I am curious, how big are the lugs on a P14? I am also curious as to the diameter of the P14 bolt head.

Nice to hear from you again Jeffeosso. I hope that your trollE reference was to me.

Axel

The Lilja barrels website has an article about how to calculate bolt lug strength for the thrust of big bores.

No problems with the P-14 or 1917 enfield actions. I have never personally seen one fail and my own experience with them is extremely positive. Of course if the gunsmithing was done by an incompetent troll for example, then all bets are off. The adequacy of this actions strength has been proven many times with this class of cartridges and there is no reason to revisit it. The nice thing is that with 570 gr bullets, a 505 Gibbs enfield will at least hold three cartridges in the magazine. The 640 gr Military bullets will unfortunately have to be loaded as single shots.
500 grains- These calculations are available from many sources, unfortunately one needs about fifth grade math to evaluate them properly. -Rob

This may not be the exact same measurement for ALL P-14 bolts. I measured mine in four places and they were all 0.700".

I corresponded with a gent from this board who has a .577 T-Rex, he told me his bolt face has no ring on it, just "bunny ears". I take this to mean the left and right bolt lugs that extended slightly past the face. He said it worked perfectly for him.

I think by the time you'd be worried bout pressure in one of these monsters your body would run out of recoil tolerance.

Rodger- The T-Rex uses a 1917 Enfield action with a P-14 bolt and you are absolutely correct in that there is no bolt rim left as a T-Rex uses a .688 bolt. The remaining bolt lug and ejector protrusion "Ears" are large enough and positioned adequately to control the cartridge even though the bolt is .700. One question I have always wondered about is if A-Square had the 1917 enfield actions re-heat treated or not. Apparantly, the heat treatment used on early Enfields and P-14's was suspect and some receivers were considered too brittle for magnum conversions. Perhaps there is someone out there ( please not a Troll) who can shed some light on this.-Rob

Mr. Rothschild, thank you for the information about the P14 bolt. Robgunbuilder, you had stated that you knew all the action strengths. I am surprised by you admission that you do not know what the safe limits of a M1917/P14 action are!

I guess what concerns me is, how would these actions be reheat-treated, as you put it? Heat treatment processes typically generate distortions. What alloy was used for these actions, manganese steel? Also, what was the original heat treatment? Were these action through hardened, case hardened, through hardened and drawn back, etc. What were the hardness specifications of these actions with the heat treatment that was originally performed? What would be the hardness specifications for a reheat-treatment? Robgungbiulder do you know the answers to any of these questions.

Axel

[ 10-03-2002, 23:38: Message edited by: Axel ]

No Trolls please!

Robgunbuilder, I am not a troll. I have asked legitimate questions. Why do you continue to attack me?

Would I be correct in assuming that you do not know any of the answers to my questions.

Axel

I have built several 505's and the Enfield actions are just fine, Some of the P14 and P17 are not acceptable due to heat treating....

Any Enfield, Mauser can be heat treated but re-heat treating is the wrong word here...All actions should be heated to soft then heated back up to needed or required specs. One always takes a chance when this is done, but it is very rare that an action is ruined these days.

I recently got a 1 hour telephone sumation, lecture and cussing on this process from D'Arcy Echols and I walked around whistling "Who'd a thought it" for the rest of the day...Very enlightening. D'Arcy cuts me little slack unless George Hoffman is around then together we scare the hell out of him...

A good Enfield, P14 or P17 I suspect will make a fine 505 Gibbs, When done properly they are a beatiful action..

Mr. Atkinson, thank you for your post. I had hoped that the actions were annealed prior to final heat treat. Do you know what the final heat treat specification is?

Thanks again,
Axel

[I guess what concerns me is, how would these actions be reheat-treated, as you put it?
TrollE[/QB][/QUOTE]

Your lack of knowledge of of these techniques is TROLLE dumbfounding.

just perdactly as the US military did it with 1903s. and just as spotty was the concern raised.

and, as they do with EVERY CARVED ACTION based off a former military action. Softened to work on, hardened to shoot.

Go back to your dogeared physics books, and see if the grownups have left a 50s era gunsmithing book around.

jeffe
trollhunter

Jeffeosso- Good show! You have a knack for telling it just like it is! The ToddE/Axel/SRS personalities remind me of my dog licking his ass. You can't tell one end from the other when he gets through!However, It's a total waste of time to even bother acknowledging these Trolls! No matter how much crap we heap on them they just love it and want more! It's the attention, I guess!
I'm not wasting any more of my time on them. Let's discuss this privately.-Rob

[ 10-04-2002, 05:12: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

What about A-Square loading the 577 T-Rex to 2460 f/sec with a 750 grs bullet(around 50000 CUP) on the P-17 action - I have never heard of any failures. Neither have I heard about any A-Square modified P-17 actions failing in any of the other powerfull A-Square calibers.
What do all you "pressure/actionstrenght/boltthrust-experts" think ???

Ulrik

A-Square was very finicky about choosing only top quality Enfields, particularly Winchesters. I am not a gunsmith, but some gunsmiths say that some of the Eddystone Enfields are brittle. Others just say that the Enfields have steel that is almost as hard as diamond and very difficult to machine. But clearly the Enfields are made from stronger steel than other World War I actions, as no one hesitates to build and Enfield into a 460 weatherby, etc. But it is quite difficult to get a competent gunsmith to turn a World War I mauser 98 into a 270 weatherby magnum unless the action is re-heat treated, due to the soft steel of WWI mausers.

That being said, I have heard of a pressure test comparing the Enfield action to the Ultramag action, and due to modern metallurgy, the Ultramag action survived higher pressures than the Enfield. But the Enfield was good to about double the pressure of a 460 weatherby, so it's not really a big concern.

500grains, can you please tell me what the 460 Weatherby magnum's pressure is?

Thanks,
Axel

I think i've posted the operating pressure of most of the weatherby's.. and it 62366psi. same as the 416 rem, 458 win, 458 lott, etcetera, ad nosium.

Rob, I think you are right, as only a 15 year old would have that short of a memory
jeffe

Jeffeosso, I did not address my question to you. For your information, according to Weatherby the operating pressure is 63500 psi avg. That is a bit greater than you post indicates. That would mean that the actions that 500grains post refers to would have been exercised to 127000 psi of pressure. Sounds incredibly high to me.

If I had been born on Feb 29th I would now have celebrated 10 birthdays.

Axel

Ulrik- I don't believe you have a thing to worry about with your T-Rex. As others have said before, a good 1917 Enfield is an excellent action and it's strength has been proven hundreds of times by hundreds of people with T-Rex's, 585 NYATI's, 460 WBY's 505 Gibbs,470 MBOGOs etc. I too have never seen one or heard of one that failed . It is not the easiest action to work on, but it has the advantage of being an inexpensive action that can be converted to a .688 boltface by using a cheap P-14 bolt.
Axel- Even you ( whoever you are today) can't seriously debate this fact. Case closed!-Rob

RGB and Jeffe,

I am building a .376 Steyr on a vz24(as you know Jeffe). I am intrested in fully and properly sporterizing it, I am having it heat treating it before it is finally asembled.

But as it is now, its damn hard to work on. How would I go about softening it? Heat it cherry with a tourch and let it cool or would it be best to have one else do this in an oven?

Besides clearing up the pits/dents/dings what eslse is typically done with actions to properly sporterize them?

I have been told the stripper clip slots are taken off, would that mean just cutting back the read bridge, till its front edge was flat?

Is there any thing that can really be done to the relief on the left side that is for the thumb pushing clips into the magazine?

Thank you,
Kristofer

[ 10-09-2002, 09:32: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

Axle,

THe Enfield blew at a little over 110,000 psi.

You don't mind rough numbers do you?

500grains, thanks for the accurate information! No I do not mind rough numbers, but prefer accurate ones.

Axel

KBGuns- The VZ24 is considered one of the best mauser action to start out with and the .376 Steyr is not a bad choice either. You can drop alot of money on a Mauser sporter if you go whole hog. I use Pacific Heat Treating in San Jose for my work. They can properly anneal the receiver for you as well as heat treat it properly. It will cost about $65 and they turn their work around overnight! However, It's been my experience with VZ24's that they don't need to be annealed prior to machining/ drilling etc. They are no where near as hard as most of the pre-WWII mausers. I have never had to even spot anneal one prior to drilling or tapping. There are inexpensive fixtures available for reshaping the front and rear bridges from Brownells , however, there is no easy way to eliminate the thumb cut out. You can mill away the clip slot. I've never played with a .376 Steyr as the biggest problem ususally is the magazine box, but I have built a 9.3X64 Brenneke on a VZ24. It worked out great( 250 gr bullet at 2750fps and< 1 MOA)! If you want more details feel free to E-Mail me.-Rob

Gents,
I am a big fan of the Enfields for big bore sporter rifles and have the utmost confidence in them. I currently have a .375 Taylor,A .416 Rem Mag,A 458 American and a puny pair of 30-06's here at home,with a 35 Whelen,338 Win Mag and a .500 A-Square in the works. The 500 will be the next to grace my abode. I shall never turn my back on a Enfield at a good price. Biased and sure enough know it. I have a fair number of guns with not a Rem 700 or Win 70 in the bunch. Just not my preference to this point,I just prefer guns that have "been there & done that". 45nut

Hey KB,Rob
The 376 feeds really nice, as I got mine back from fluign last night. The thumbslot, well, i actually REALLY like that, with my huge hands, it helps with getting the rounds in quick under a scope.
been busy as heck at work, so my post is going to be short today.
jeffe