Been tossing this one around for a couple of weeks now vs a 505 Gibbs. All I know is what I read on the AHR site.

So if anyone would care to comment on it?

Thanks.

Al,

Do a search on this forum. There have been several threads on this round.

George

[ 12-16-2002, 22:13: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

I would recommend a 500 A-Square instead because of the cheap, quality norma brass in .460 wby that can be necked up. The 500 ahr uses bertram brass which I personally experienced to be very soft and can lead to sticky extraction.

I know one of the members from Alaska has one, and in fact it's for sale:

Have a really nice 500 AHR with brass, bullets and dies that I would let go for $2300.00.

24" barrel, fiber optic front sight, Warne QR rings, built on the CZ550 action, Laminated walnut stock, 11#

Allen
aglore@gci.net
httP//www.outdoor-o-rama.com

500 gr is on the money.

for practicality the .500 A2 is the best. As far as charm & nostalagia the .505 gibbs woould near be at the top of the pack. Horneber make brass for the .505 gibbs to which would be my choice.

I have a 500 AHR and for all intents and purposes it's the equivalent of a 505 jeffery or 505 gibbs. Good low pressure round. Worksmanship is very good and it's well worth it as a reliable slightly upscale DGR. AHR adds some very nice touches like a precise metalsmithing safety shroud and new trigger. Their stockmaker also is quite accomplished. For $3K you can't beat it.
I have had no extraction problems with mine, although I too hate bertram brass.-Rob

Just speculation on my part, as I am only in process of building my 500jeffe-ry...

505 gibbs... AWESOME.. but, where it me, it would be a 505/510, to shoot more readily available .510 bullets

500 AHR, full rim, and slightly longer neck than jeffery... should feed easier (i wont say better)

500 well/a2/etc...
nice, but not a gibbs or a jeffery...

BTW, there is a "jeffery improved" with a full rim.

all in all, you can get just about the same ballistics out of all of them.. higher pressure in some than others.

500x460weatherby would be the easist to make... screw in another barrel on a 416 rigby CZ, and have a switch barrel...
jeffe

I would go with the 50-505 Gibbs. I think CH4D even makes a die set called 510 Gibbs for this cartridge. The 500 AHR is too proprietary as the only source for brass is from them. 505 brass are more readily available, at least there are three possible sources. Huntington is selling Horneber 505 Gibbs brass for about $4 a pop. I think the 510 Gibbs reamer is available from Dave Manson. Good luck!

Just got delivery on my 500 AHR! My experience and comments the same as Robgunbuilder. Very happy with workmanship, good stock job, quarter rib, 25 inch barrel, etc. New X brake really works. Weighs 12.5 lbs. and balances and swings real well. It will be a good hunting rifle even with brake off.

Had a little trouble feeding, but is worked out now. Don't like the brass source, Bertam, but like the .510 bullets and like the idea of the low pressure round. Proprietary caliber doesn't bother me much no more that if I had a Lazzoroni, Dakota, Rem ulta, or Win short mag calibers; all which are not available in Africa.

Hopefully, as more of 500 AHR rifles are sold, maybe as a group we can approach Horneber to make brass or learn to cold work Bertram.

Everyone needs a 500.

Hi Paul, what was the feeding problem? Did you correct it or did you send it back to AHR?

I am just interested in "cold Working" I have some Bertram brass and I am wondering if this will make it better ??

The 505 gibbs has the single redeeming feature that it's exotic. With major nostalgia appeal. People will actually pay a major premium for one at SCI etc. A 510 -.505 Gibbs while imminently more practical is just another wildcat and I've found that it's a hard sell to ever get anyone to buy a wildcat. The 505 Gibbs can be hot loaded up to some serious levels, but I for one don't see the purpose of that. For major power it's better to just go up in bullet diameter and weight.
The 500 AHR is almost identical to the 500 Jeffery with a slightly longer neck as I remember. In fact I think 500 jeffery rounds could be safely fired in the 500 AHR. AHR has a deal going with B. Bertram, but perhaps we could talk them into buying some brass from Dieter.-Rob

I am perfectly willing to agree that Bertram brass is the worst thing since eating cold raw live leeches, because that is the overwhelming majority consensus on this site. And I didn't measure my brass for neck wall thickness or rim thickness, just for length and loaded neck diameter in several places. I might have had one tight flash hole. Then I tied a long string to the trigger and backed up and pulled the string. A very satisfactory bang followed.

Since that time I have added more powder until the case was full, and then changed to a faster powder and added more powder. Out of a 32" barrel my .510-.505 Gibbs is up to a little over 2350 fps with the 700 gr. M2 ball. One expert has suggested that that is more than enough. Previously I had thought somewhat more would be safe. After my eyes stop shaking like jello (apparently that is only 8600 ft.-lbs., but the stock does not fit well. I'm in the process of restocking it) I open the bolt easily and the brass pings out with no resistance. There is a palatial amount of room left for more powder.

The cases have only been reloaded twice, but the primer holes still seem to be tight. My question is, how will I know when I have discovered the vile nature of Bertram brass? The necessity of cold working Bertram brass to improve it so far escapes me.

I have no allegiance to Bertram brass. HDS costs no more, or perhaps less.

This is intended to be a slightly humorous post, and you can reply seriously or with remarks similar to "...when you'd rather eat leeches than seat bullets in Bertram cases..."

SDS,

I had my chamber for my .585 Nyati cut to Robgunbuiders specifications particularly so I would not have any issue with Bertram Brass. To date I have not in the caliber .585 allthough I notice the necks look a lot more fragile than the Horneber cases I have (once again thanks to Rob.). Admittadly I load my .585 pretty conservatively a 650 gr bullet in front of 150 gr of AR2209 which is the equivalent of 145 gr of IMR4350 I use fed 215m primers.

In my .416 Rigby it has been nothing but woeful. In relation to the primer pockets, they are terribly tight and I had a hell of time reaming them out on my RCBS case prep systym. They were so tight it would stop the motor of the machine !! a heap of brass comes out and I suggest this procedure otherwise your primers will be seated proud.

Regards PC.

You will know your bertram brass is crappy if:

1. You get stick extraction even if you are using low pressure loads.

2. The rim diameter or thickness varies substantially from case to case.

3. You drop one on the floor and it gets a big dent because it is so soft.

You will know you are using Bertram Brass when you drop a loaded round on the rug and it dents so deeply you can't chamber it ( at the range of course).-Rob

You can also tell by weighing trimmed cases. The Bertrams will weigh anywhere from 20 to 35 grains less than the Horneber and the Horneber cases all weigh within 2 grains of each other, across a sampling of 80 cases. What does that tell you? Anyone who would like a random sampling of .505 Bertram headsize and rim thickness variation send email.

It does not take much pressure to get a sticky bolt either 500 & Rob. Starting loads stick in my .416.

500grains--When the magazine was fully loaded the 2nd and 3rd rounds would hang up, would not jump up to be grabbed by the claw as the bolt moved forward. Sent it back to AHR, fixed rather quickly and now chambers and ejects easily when cycled either slow or fast.

PC--If the extrusion dies and material microstructure-hardness is set up correctly at Bertram, the finished cases should have higher yield and tensile strength (cold work). A hand loader using fired cases does not much latitude to work with as even full case resizing with not put in much cold work, but maybe improve it after several firings. On the loading forum it was stated that the Bertram brass is a favorite for people who extrude their own cases with special dies, in this case serious cold work would be the result. Is this the reason that Bertram has soft brass, a niche market for Aussies, or is it just to save wear on his extrusion equipment.

Some 500 AHR experience:
After barrel breakin, fired a rapid string of 3 shots off-hand from 80 yards. Recoil was minimal and rifle did not leave my shoulder. Acuracy was about 9-10 inches max. Rifle stocking and good balance with low energy ~6000 ft/lbs.
570 gr solids- 2160 ft/sec-5906 ft/lbs
535 gr softs-2290 ft/sec-6231 ft/lbs
Loading to 2350 ft/sec for a 570 gr bullect yields a calculated energy of 6991 ft/lbs. This is probably my upper limit (7000) for an old guy like me . My field hunting will be done without a brake and I will add a scope.

Again, the only knock on the 500 improved Jeffrey (AHR) is the brass source and if anyone has other options or sources, it would be interesting. Certainly, no one on the AR forum is a fan of B-brass .

Paul- Take a look at your mag box and please confirm that all the Ribs of the CZ magazine were filed out? I think that is the fix for correcting the feeding problems on a AHR.-Rob

Paul,

I am no engineer or mettalurgist but I have toured the Bertram Factory and his machinery is extremely old. So maybe he is saving wear on his extrusion equipment (I am ignorant of what this does.

PC
The old equipment may be part of the story as the fully annealed stock may be easier to extrude,ie.less energy, extrusion die wear and better tolerance except that does not seem to be the case either, according to AR posters.
The other case involved forming several basic case sizes and shapes, which later can be made into wild cat or proprietary case configurations.

If we 500 AHR owners get agitated enough on the use of Bertram brass, we could take that tact and cold work the final AHR case, but that is being desperate.

Paul,

I am still ignorant of the cold workin procedure can you you please explain to how I could cold work my .585 Bertram brass ??

Regards PC.

Paul, you work your brass by shooting it and running it through the sizer repeatedly. Some say that tumbling/vibrating it in a case cleaner also helps, but I don't know.

Thanks for that 500.

500 I have your dummy round and 1 sample Taipan 400 gr .416 bullet packaged to send back to you. That is the only .416 Ta1pan I have, there soft made in Australia and would be good for your white tail dears I reckon. I am not sure who sells the .416 varients in Australia any more, occasionaly see them advertised in .308 cal etc.

PC.