There has been a really fascinating discussion on the thread regarding whether the .375 is an adequate for elephant. However, most of the discussion seems to always center on the "brain shot". As a fellow who has never been to Africa, I have always wondered why more hunters don't try for a shoulder or heart/lung shot? I guess you have to take what the gods give you but wouldn't the shoulder/heart/lung shot require a a lot less precise shot placement?

As an aside, I seem to recall and article by Finn AAgard where he shot an elephant in the ear hole with a 7x57 "just to see what would happen." Killed the elephant deader than a wedge.

The heart/lung shot is probably the one most PHs prefer the client to take.

If the PH knows the client is proficient and cool enough, he may suggest the brain shot, especially if the elephant is near the border of the concession.

George

My only elephant was side brained with a .470 at 30 yards. DRT. Don't think the frontal would have been as easy tho'

So, I'm not likley to ever hunt Elephant but I do have to ask the question:

Just how large is the brain/brain kill zone on an elephant anyway? Are we talking 3" kill zone on a side brain? 8" kill zone?

Is this a case of "Can you hit a pie plate at 30 yards with iron sites?"

Just curious...

Robert, I can't answer your question. I just don't know but guys seem to have difficulty making the brain shot, especially the frontal brain shot. I have watched videos of even PHs shooting really big bores missing brain shots at very close range. Trust me, I can sure hit a pie plate at 50 meters with irons. However, I think George had it right. I think a lot of heart lung shots are taken but no one seems to talk about them.

Here's the other question. Isn't a heat/lung shot more certain than what seems to be a tricky brain shot? If you miss the brain shot and the elephant runs off before you can shoot again, you still have to pay for the elephant right?

If the brain shot is executed properly, the elephant (any animal) is dead right there.

W.D.M. Bell specialized in it. And he used small caliber stuff like the .275 and .303 with FMJ bullets.

Anybody that says a .375H&H with FMJ is not effective, is really only talking about their shooting ability. With proper shot placement, the .375H&H, with FMJ bullets will poleax any elephant.

What I find funny is watching videos of guys that OBVIOUSLY miss the brain shot, then after several followup shots are made and the elephant is finally dispatched, marvelling at how the "...brain shot didn't even knock it down!"

It's cuz they totally missed and couldn't figure that out. There's several of these clips in "Beasts of legend" with Ivan Carter (not Carter missing of course). Funny shit...

Watch Elephant Hunting with Buzz Charlton. There is great instructional videos in that, that show where to hit the brain, from pretty much any angle.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
As an aside, I seem to recall and article by Finn AAgard where he shot an elephant in the ear hole with a 7x57 "just to see what would happen." Killed the elephant deader than a wedge.

Actually I think it was one of Aagaard's schoolmates who "put one in the ear hole".

The brain is about the size of a loaf of bread, and just like a loaf of bread it is much easier to hit from the side than it it is to hit end-on.

The heart lung shot is more sure and it offers a huge target. That said, it is messy and you can almost guarentee that the PH will be backing you up(so you will never really know who killed the elephant).

A brain shot is quick, clean(relatively) and painless. Most importantly, if you preform the brain shot correctly there will be no back-up by the PH(IOW, you will have killed your elephant).

Dave, watch Buzz Charlton's DVD on shooting Elephant....it's the best there is. The learning curve is on frontal brain shots, and not being misled by the angle of the Elephant's head (up or down). The brain is in the rear of the skull, so aiming between the cheekbones keeps you centered on the brain. If you haven't seen the DVD, PM me and I'll sent it off to you.

Dave,

As Biebs said, you need to watch Buzz's first DVD, "Hunting the African Elephant". It shows you how to find the brain and properly aim for it. It's about the size and shape of an American football, laying side to side, point to ear hole, point to ear hole.

There are several reasons most PHs prefer the brain shot. Firstly, if executed correctly, the ele dies without even hearing the rifle's report. It's the most humane way to take this great beast.

Secondly, if the brain shot is missed and a back up is necessary from the PH, it is immediately obvious and no time is wasted trying to decide whether or not to join in.

Thirdly, a "body" shot on elephant that misses the heart, only taking out the lungs, can result in a long follow up with the animal possibly making it to a boundary where the hunting party cannot follow. A single lung hit is a mess of another level all together.

In 4 attempts now, I've not hit the brain perfectly just yet. I'll be trying again this December. But in every one of my previous attempts, the elephant was dropped in it's tracks and out cold whereby the finishing shot could be administered quickly within a matter of seconds. Even a perfectly executed heart / lung shot is going to result in the animals running a bit, as always, exceptions to the rule apply.

I have only hunted a handfull of Ellie but in my humble opinion it is not the size of the brain but where it is located. I have fired at Ellie from 5 to 35 paces with .470 and 8 Bore, I have only had one frontal brain shot, to my delight I hit exactly where I aimed, I saw the puff of dust but I had aimed to high! At these point blank ranges hitting my aiming point is not the problem, the problem is making a split second decision where to aim! At this stage nothing goes as planned, I don,t suffer from nerves or fear, (maybe I should?)it is the pressure of the hunt, years of saving dollars, hours of exercise, miles of walking, heat, exhaustion but worse knowing I only have one chance, everything will be over in the next few seconds. Thankfully at the time these thoughts are banished, training and instinct take over, but afterwards I am very hard on myself.

Watch the DVDs,read the books, think three dimensional, then PLACE that first shot! There is no other experaned in the world that can come close to hunting Ellie, just my 2 cents worth.

As todd noted, a hart missed can mean a lost animal as they are generally found in the thickest bush and can travel far on a lung shot particularly when only one is hit (their lungs do not deflate like other animals).
The size of the brain is not the problem, but actually placing the bullet in the right part of the head is the trick.
Oh, and if hit well they make a interesting pose;

Nice photo Adam!

For my friend Dave Bush; hope you find this helpful.

The size of an Eles brain is often described as being similar to a loaf of bread or a NFL official football.

Degree of difficulty in ascending order:

Heart/Lung - Big target but the Ele will go 100-200 yards before it collapses with blood pouring from its' trunk. Not an ideal shot selection, IMO, but I have done.

Side Brain - relatively easy to locate and a distinct target. DRT when executed correctly.

Frontal Brain - The most difficult and troublesome. As the distance between shooter and Ele decreases, the angle of the shot upwards increases. This can be problematic, especially when Ele raises his head, which he will do once he smells/hears you. When missed low, there is a chance of a CNS hit to the spine in the Eles neck. I did this at 15 yards last September on my last Ele. The physical reaction is the same as a frontal brain. Some very well known african hunters, who have made many safaris and taken a few Eles, are still trying to make this shot.

Disabling shots include the front shoulder (side presentation) and the going away hip shot or the going away spine shot. These shots may be used to anchor an Ele under certain conditions when that is desirable. An Ele cannot support its' weight and walk on three legs so will collapse when putting its weight on the destroyed appendage. These all require follow-ups to dispatch the Ele. I have used the front shoulder shot effectively in heavy brush.

Brain shots on Ele are desirable to me because they immediately close the issue without further drama.

Keep well.

A brain shot elephant very well may be the most "Dramatic" of shots any hunter/shooter can ever experience. It is classic to say the least, and you will always see that rear end drop first, followed by the front end. Once completed, never stop shooting, put one in the heart, just in case, many a dead elephant has arisen to "Run Away"...., Especially if that front end drops first!

With that being said, I think WAY too many hunters, take the brain shot, and they should have taken the heart shot. In many cases, a really good brain shot is not presented, and taken anyway, and results are often not pleasant, and sometimes resulting in disaster.

Personally I have only taken two brain shots, one side, one frontal, both successful, both perfect brain shots, and classic. The rest, have been heart shots, one which was screwed up by me, missed the heart, hit only one lung, and a battle transpired, fortunately a short one.

I will not take the brain shot unless perfectly presented, and I am confident I can visualize where that small football is! If not, I will drop immediately and take the heart shot. I will not take an iffy shot at the brain, there is just way too much that can happen, and way too many things that can go wrong.

Now all this is of course dependent upon the situation you find yourself in, many have mentioned being close to the border of a concession, and other reasons, and find yourself in something similar to that, take extra precautions and wait for the shot, don't rush. Another situation is it may be the only shot you have, a charge for instance, of course depending on the scenario of where you are in relation to the elephant, in one such instance a brain shot would be impossible if you are already down and the elephant is above you, the heart shot is what you have!

Take the best shot presented to you at the moment, sometimes it will be the brain shot, but more often it will not be, and regardless of what shot, never stop shooting until you run dry, then load again and shoot some more!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
For my friend Dave Bush; hope you find this helpful.

The size of an Eles brain is often described as being similar to a loaf of bread or a NFL official football.

Degree of difficulty in ascending order:

Heart/Lung - Big target but the Ele will go 100-200 yards before it collapses with blood pouring from its' trunk. Not an ideal shot selection, IMO, but I have done.

Side Brain - relatively easy to locate and a distinct target. DRT when executed correctly.

Frontal Brain - The most difficult and troublesome. As the distance between shooter and Ele decreases, the angle of the shot upwards increases. This can be problematic, especially when Ele raises his head, which he will do once he smells/hears you. When missed low, there is a chance of a CNS hit to the spine in the Eles neck. I did this at 15 yards last September on my last Ele. The physical reaction is the same as a frontal brain. Some very well known african hunters, who have made many safaris and taken a few Eles, are still trying to make this shot.

Disabling shots include the front shoulder (side presentation) and the going away hip shot or the going away spine shot. These shots may be used to anchor an Ele under certain conditions when that is desirable. An Ele cannot support its' weight and walk on three legs so will collapse when putting its weight on the destroyed appendage. These all require follow-ups to dispatch the Ele. I have used the front shoulder shot effectively in heavy brush.

Brain shots on Ele are desirable to me because they immediately close the issue without further drama.

Keep well.

Thanks Mike. It's great to get info from all the guys with actual experience.

I just finished reading "Pondoro", and I'm sure many of you have read it too. He is very strong on the shoulder shot for elephant and indeed for all game.

Hugh

Dave,

I have only experienced one Elephant hunt. I went into the hunt with the mindset to take the highest percentage shot available, but be prepared to take what was given. We stalked many bulls during the hunt and with the thick brush the only options on some of the bulls would have been a brain shot.

My bull presented a clear heart lung shot at ~40 yards. He ran 10 yards and dropped! Below is a picture of his heart, it gives a good indication on the size of the heart and the damage done by a Barnes 525gr banded solid.

Michael, you need to post a photo of a non-con heart shot with star shaped damage by the petals!

Well Naki, this might not be a NonCon, but it is a 500 gr BBW#13 solid .500 caliber that hit this heart at 2400 fps, and it hit it pretty hard as you can see. Hard enough to turn him away from me.

Since most elephant are shot a very short range, which IMO is the way they should be hunted so its healther to brain shoot them..A heart/lung shot elephant at close range can live a good while and is easily aggrivated..

I suppose lots of elephants are shot at longer distances in the shoulder these days, much more so than in the past I think..

There is no doubt that you can lose an elephant with either a poorly placed heart/lung or head shot. I do agree though with Michael458 that the head shot is used much more often then needed. In my opinion you are much more likely to kill an elephant within a reasonable time with a high heart/lung shot than a head shot.

For one thing your target is easier to hit since it is a much larger target on the heart/lung shot, basketball size versus a large orange size for a frontal head shot (depending on the elephants head position) or a half loaf of bread size for a side brain shot. Also the vital organ is much closer to the outside of the skin on a heart/lung shot than a frontal head shot making it easier to see the vitals by x-ray vision or to use an aim point on the outer side of the skin.

I do disagree with the opinion expressed here that it is difficult to kill an elephant with a heart/lung shot. In my experience and Don Heath has backed me on this, elephants are quite easily killed with a properly placed heart/lung or lung only shot. They seem to die just about as quickly and travel about as far as a mule deer hit with a similar shot. I have had them go down as close as 30 ft and as far as 100 yards. About the same as deer do in my experience. You do have to be very careful on angled heart/lung shots because if you only get one lung you could be in for a long track and possibly a lost elephant.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
a much larger target on the heart/lung shot, basketball size versus a large orange size for a frontal head shot (depending on the elephants head position) or a half loaf of bread size for a side brain shot.

Not to pick nits, but I think you are greatly understating the size of each organ. The photo of the heart in the above post shows that the heart is pretty good sized. Similarly, the brain is not as small as an orange at any angle.

All the elephants that I have shot have been brain shot.

The reason is that at elephant hunting distances, I prefer to do it rather than a heart/lung shot.

Come to think of it, I have shot quite a number of buffalo in the brain when they were close enough.

It is a surest way to drop them in their tracks.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
a much larger target on the heart/lung shot, basketball size versus a large orange size for a frontal head shot (depending on the elephants head position) or a half loaf of bread size for a side brain shot.

Not to pick nits, but I think you are greatly understating the size of each organ. The photo of the heart in the above post shows that the heart is pretty good sized. Similarly, the brain is not as small as an orange at any angle.

Jason,

No problem, feel free to pick nits any time you want on my posts. Comments by someone like you make me think a little deeper into what I say. In this case, I was talking about the sure and quick kill zone. If you take the circumference of a basketball and super impose it over the heart/lung area with the lower third of the ball including the top of the heart, the rest covers the aortas over the heart and the central portion of the lungs. A hit in this area will give the quickest death and shortest run after the hit. I actually aim at a much smaller target as I know if I hit the large aorta, that elephant will be down within 30 ft to 40 yards. So on a true broadside shot I try to hit a hands breadth forward of the top of the crease behind the shoulder, the bullet will center the aorta and penetrate both lungs. Hit lower than that circle and you will hit the bottom of the heart which kills much slower than a higher heart hit. Go either forward, above or to the rear of that ball sized aiming area and you will hit the lungs edges and again see a slower death.

On the frontal shot, most don't realize that if the elephant is looking with a level head at you, you are shooting at the front of the brain. At that angle you only have a view of the front of the brain which depending on the elephants size is only 5 to 6" high and around 9 to 12' wide. This means that you must send your bullet down the length of the brain and hope to hit the rear portion which is the most lethal portion. Also you have to thread your bullet between the tusk sockets to avoid hitting them and possibly deflecting your bullet and/or damaging the tusks. The ends of the tusks are actually between and above the eye line. You are left with around a 4 or 5" window between the tusks. That amounts to large orange in size.

If the elephant has its head up high and looking down its nose at you then you are actually shooting at the flat underside of the brain a much larger target but you also have to shoot though a lot more trunk and bone to get there. If the head is held low as in a charge then you are shooting at the top surface of the brain, again a much larger target and also on this shot you have the shortest and most direct path to the brain.

I try to not only hit the vital area but to try to get my bullet into the most critical potions of the vitals so my aiming areas are smaller than normally given.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Also you have to thread your bullet between the tusk sockets to avoid hitting them and possibly deflecting your bullet and/or damaging the tusks. The ends of the tusks are actually between and above the eye line. You are left with around a 4 or 5" window between the tusks. That amounts to large orange in size.
------------

I try to not only hit the vital area but to try to get my bullet into the most critical potions of the vitals so my aiming areas are smaller than normally given.

465H&H

You are 100% correct. I have to admit that I am confident of the side brain shot with just about any cartridge, but I have little confidence in my ability to make the frontal brain shot(keeping in mind I have one elephant to my name).

You make a great point about the frontal brain shot and the tusk bases. Add to that the varying bone densities of different portions of the front of the skull and palate, and the fact that the elephant changes the external aiming points with the slightest shift of its head......

It's almost like trying to kill a buffalo by shooting at the one standing in front of it.

My hat is off to those of you who can pull it off.

465
I think you should clarify the difference between a head shot and a brain shot in your post, it may confuse some. I know you know better. Yes, they can go great distances with a head shot that misses the brain, but they do not travel at all when hit in the brain...

A brain shot is not difficult at 10 to 15 yards with a set of iron sights IMO, and of course one needs to take care. I have nothing against a heart shot if one is uncomfortable with the brain shot and the range in question would also determine the shot to some degree.

Ray,

You may be right about the head shot vs brain shot terminology but I just can't imagine anyone shooting for the head on an elephant without trying to hit the brain. There just isn't anything else in the head to aim at that will give you a quick kill. So for me they mean the same thing.

I am also unaware of anyone that has proven that an elephant hit in some portion of the brain still can't run off.

The same can be said of a near miss to the brain knocking an elephant out. I am unaware of anyone showing that this in fact has happened by dissection. I may be wrong on this and someone such as Don Heath may have proved this.

465H&H

No arguement here, just thought you might want to clear up the post..I knew you knew!