411 KDF Custom Rem 700 - So what did I buy?

Hello All,

Not sure if I should post this here, or in the Custom Gun Section, so I did both.

I drove 160 miles up North to an Annual Labor Day Gun show in Eagle River, Wisconsin. I asked one of the regular Dealers there, if he had anything "Big" or "Weird". (my typical interest)

He said he had a rifle that was "Both". The price was absurdly cheap because he found little information about the caliber, and no source for ammo.

So, I bought it.

Character marks make it look to have been a "working gun" for use in Alaska, or Africa.

Here's the description:

Custom built on a Remington model 700 action.

It has a dark "black/greenish" parkerized finish on both the action and the barrel.

Barrel length is 23-1/2" including the Muzzle Brake. (I believe it is a KDF Brake)

Weight is 8-3/4 pounds. LOP = 13-1/4 (it came with a leather slip-on recoil boot which can add 3/4" more)

Side of the barrel is stamped 411 KDF

Bottom of the barrel is stamped in 3 lines ....

BJO = 4792 B3
400/411 13,7
RTD 12 87

It has a light green/gray Camo Pattern Bell & Carlson synthetic stock with integral sling bars, a Compass in the bottom of the grip cap, and a thumb screw removable buttplate to access the inside of the hollow stock - 3 loaded cartridges are stored there.

It has a Redfield 1.75x5 Widefield scope w/ rangefinder, with Millet rings that have model 100 white-outlined adjustable sights built into the top of the rings.

So, anyone with information on this caliber, or how this rifle might have come to be made, would be appreciated.

If anyone has a rifle in this caliber, or knows someone who does, please let me know.

Here are some pictures:

Great round, I shot one for awhile, I think I still have some ammo... Just a 458 necked down to .411...done by KDF in Seguin TX, good efficient rounds--just like the 416 Taylor

Hello 505ED,

Thanks for the reply.

If you have some ammo that you're not going to use, I'd be interested.

I have some 411 KDF ammo. PM sent

I had one years ago, a KDF Titan built on a Mauser 99 action, in nice wood with electroless Nickel metalwork. It was my first "big bore" rifle. I remember putting a solid through 2 18" oak trees to test its penetration.

Hello admiral,

Thanks for the reply. I sent you a return PM.

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm sometimes surprized that even after all these years in the gun business, I find there is something I have not heard of. I have hand loaded more than 200 different calibers over the past 47 years, and have over 300 sets of reloading dies on hand, but never heard of a .411 KDF until now.

I've since found that this rifle takes a .411 dia bullet. I have none, but I'm thinking I might draw down a few of my several hundred Hornady 416 RN corelock bullets for testing.

I have a large box of bullets that aren't quite 416 caliber. I'll mic them to see if they are left over from my 411 days.

I drew down a bunch of the Speer 350 grain .416's when I was first doing load development for my 400 Whelen. I used a .411 die to start and got enough spring back that chambering was difficult in my rifle. I started using a .410 die and had no more issues. Don't know how the Hornady bullets will respond.

There are quite a few .410 and .411 bullets available. Hornady has a .410 400 grain that shoots well in my .411 barrel. Swift has a 350 and 400 grain A Frame, Barnes a 300 grain TSX, Woodleigh a 400 grain RN and FMJ as well as a hydrostatically stabilized solid. Hawk has 300, 350 and 400 grain RN bullets and North Fork has a 300 and 360 grain. There are sometimes listings on GB for some of the old .411 Barnes X in 350 and 400 grain.

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for the reply.

I appreciate your help.

Hello mart,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll be testing my draw down this afternoon. If I can get them down "under" 410, I have a swage die that can bump them back "up" to 410 to tighten the jackets.

Got a box of reloads, they are loaded with 300 grain hawks...how about $30 for the box

Ed

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the reply.

Sounds good, I sent you a PM.

Near San Marcos in Texas is the KDF shop, he used to import Rosseler Titan/Mauser rifles out of Austria or Germany (depending on the time). They aren't worth much of anything outside that area of Texas.

They are nice rifles, the guy that makes them in Austria bought the design from Mauser. I think they are related to the Mauser 2000 rifle.

I used to collect them. I believe when Kleinguenther sold out to Phil _____? in Seguin, the "DF" was added- Kleinguenther Destinguished Firearms.

That looks like a KDF brake, but can't tell. The Kleinguenthers were very accurate rifles, to me their only downfall was the detachable box. It only took one empty chamber from a no cartridge pick up to sell my entire collection. You shouldn't have that problem with a 700.

I had one of the poster rifles and another in which Robert's daughter designed a plaque of an eagle and a snake (the sign of Seguin) in the butt of the stock. I was told the latter was bought by Robert's son in law for his wife (a neurosurgeon) and the rifle made a complete circle back to where it belongs.


http://www.standardfirearms.com/kleinguenther

Phil Kuehne...he was still working in the shop last i talked to him. They sell Blaser rifles now.

buckstix,
Funny how we all have little gaps in our expertise. I thought everyone had heard of the .411 KDF.
Here you are claiming to have never heard of it until you bought the rifle, and you are about as expert as they come on the weird and big stuff!

http://www.ammo-one.com/411KDF.html



"The .411 KDF was developed
by Phil Koene of (KDK) for:
(Kleinguenther Distinguised Firearms).
The reason was that the .411"
Diameter Cartridges feed better
through the magazine of the Voere
rifles better then the .416" Diameter
of the 416 Taylor.
Both the 416" Taylor , and this
cartridge, the .411 KDF are made
by necking down the 458 Winchester
Magnum.
This cartridge has a
400 grain, .411"
Solid Point.
411 KDF Head Stamp
by Quality Cartridge Co."

Interesting point about a .411 KDF feeding better than the .416 Taylor, certainly an arguable point to bring to a head, pun intended.


That is a nifty find you got there.
I like it all except for the Millet rings and SOS sights on the top halves of the rings.
I would put those on a 22 rimfire, as I have broken too many Millet ring screws in recoil. They looked to be of cast metal.
Not hard to replace the ring screws with good quality ones, but better to replace the rings entirely with a good QD setup,
so as to easily swap to spare scope in the field if anything goes TU.
The Carbelite stock (one of B&C's earliest iterations) was not "lite" and the sling is not QD, but I could certainly live with that,
especially for the cartridge trap and storage in the butt.
I still have a couple of the Carbelites here.
How does the compass in the grip cap work with the ferrous barreled action so close? True pointing?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Near San Marcos in Texas is the KDF shop, he used to import Rosseler Titan/Mauser rifles out of Austria or Germany (depending on the time). They aren't worth much of anything outside that area of Texas.

They are nice rifles, the guy that makes them in Austria bought the design from Mauser. I think they are related to the Mauser 2000 rifle.

Hello Big Wonderful Wyoming,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, all good information, but apparently now Kleinguenther is no longer in business.


******************

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I used to collect them. I believe when Kleinguenther sold out to Phil _____? in Seguin, the "DF" was added- Kleinguenther Destinguished Firearms.

That looks like a KDF brake, but can't tell. The Kleinguenthers were very accurate rifles, to me their only downfall was the detachable box. It only took one empty chamber from a no cartridge pick up to sell my entire collection. You shouldn't have that problem with a 700.

I had one of the poster rifles and another in which Robert's daughter designed a plaque of an eagle and a snake (the sign of Seguin) in the butt of the stock. I was told the latter was bought by Robert's son in law for his wife (a neurosurgeon) and the rifle made a complete circle back to where it belongs.

Hello FMC,

Thanks for the reply.

I called KDF today and spoke with Phil Koene (inventor of the 411 KDF) and inquired about any History he might have on this build. He indicated that they did NOT barrel actions of other makers (like this 700 Remington) and could not provide any details about my rifle.


******************

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Phil Kuehne...he was still working in the shop last i talked to him. They sell Blaser rifles now.

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, Phil told me that since they can no longer get Kleinguenther actions, they have been selling and re-barreling Blaser rifles.


******************

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
buckstix,
Funny how we all have little gaps in our expertise. I thought everyone had heard of the .411 KDF.
Here you are claiming to have never heard of it until you bought the rifle, and you are about as expert as they come on the weird and big stuff!

"The .411 KDF was developed
by Phil Koene of (KDK) for:
(Kleinguenther Distinguised Firearms).
The reason was that the .411"
Diameter Cartridges feed better
through the magazine of the Voere
rifles better then the .416" Diameter
of the 416 Taylor.
Both the 416" Taylor , and this
cartridge, the .411 KDF are made
by necking down the 458 Winchester
Magnum.
This cartridge has a
400 grain, .411"
Solid Point.
411 KDF Head Stamp
by Quality Cartridge Co."

Interesting point about a .411 KDF feeding better than the .416 Taylor, certainly an arguable point to bring to a head, pun intended.


That is a nifty find you got there.
I like it all except for the Millet rings and SOS sights on the top halves of the rings.
I would put those on a 22 rimfire, as I have broken too many Millet ring screws in recoil. They looked to be of cast metal.
Not hard to replace the ring screws with good quality ones, but better to replace the rings entirely with a good QD setup,
so as to easily swap to spare scope in the field if anything goes TU.
The Carbelite stock (one of B&C's earliest iterations) was not "lite" and the sling is not QD, but I could certainly live with that,
especially for the cartridge trap and storage in the butt.
I still have a couple of the Carbelites here.
How does the compass in the grip cap work with the ferrous barreled action so close? True pointing?

Hello RIP.

Thanks for the reply.

I must admit it, I never heard of the 411 KDF - and I do have a Winchester Model 70 in 416 Taylor in my collection.

When I talked with Phil Koene, for about an hour, he told ME the story of how he developed the 411 cartridge, and admitted that sometime later he found that he was not the first to develope it. Un-beknownst to him, it was actually invented about 5 years earlier by another fellow. He went on to say that it was NOT made because the 411 diameter bullet fed better through the action, rather, when he was looking at different 400 grain bullets offered by Barnes, he saw that the .411 dia 400 grain Barnes bullet had a better ballistic coefficient than the 400 grain 416 dia Barnes bullet. THAT, was why he chose the 411 bullet.

He also mentioned that most of the 411 bore barrels were made by Boots Obermeyer. That's when the light went on!

The barrel markings on the bottom of the barrel are:

BJO = 4792 B3
400/411 13,7
RTD 12 87

So, it seems that BJO is for Boots J Obermeyer. Since I know Boots personally, (he also lives here in Wisconsin) it wasn't more than a hour later that I was talking with him. He said its one of his barrels and he will search his records to see what info he might have in his files. Apparently the 4792 is the barrel's serial number.

When I mentioned the RTD 12 87 marking, he opined that this gun was likely the product of Raymond T Dixon, another Wisconsin Gunsmith who used a lot of his (Obermeyer) barrels in his Custom Builds, and that it was perhaps built by him in December of 1987. Boots said that the 400/411 13,7 marking indicated - Bore / Groove / Twist rate.

Perhaps additional information will put more of these puzzle pieces together.
.

********** UPDATE **********
.

And here is the report I just got from Boots Obermeyer.


"... Helmut

I went to my log book on barrels and went to serial #4792. It lists

the caliber as .411. The bore diameters, that's the lands is listed as .400".

The groove diameter is .411" and shows it measured +.0002" over the

groove diameter. The twist rate is 1 full turn in 13.7". The B3 is for CM,

crome moly steel. The contour is listed a KDF sport contour.

Don't recall much but I think KDF was a shop that made a number

of the large caliber sporter rifles. I did some barrels for double barrels in

these large calibers for Holland & Holland.

The initial RTD is for Raymond T. Dixon who did barrel installing

from his home about 4 miles north of me. Ray is now out of doing this and

is at a retirement home in Kenosha. Haven't seen him for a couple years.

Oh, the date on my book is for the mid-year of 1987 when I made

it. Since it's a special, not a stock item, Ray must have installed it then.

Boots



As a final follow-up, I plan on visiting Mr. Dixon sometime in the near future to see if he recalls any additional information about this interesting rifle.

Now on to finding Brass, Bullets, and reloading dies. Range report to follow.

.
.
.

The Swiss have done similar things for ages. One of the magical things about AR is that you can write 10.3x60R and within a few days one of the Swiss will report on what they are doing to get around their elephant gun law from the 1800s.

They have a number Schweizercats based on .411 bullets, like a 9.3x64 case and a 416 Rem case.

Elephant gun for chamois, roe deer and ibex.

Hello Big Wonderful Wyoming,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, very interesting about the Swiss Shooters.