I see a lot these days of folks wanting to use a real big bore on deer and elk for instance, and expecting terrifying results of Dead right there and gutted waithing for hanging...

This is going to be unfavorable expectations..

Using these big bores on game results in kills much like one would expect with a 30-06 or 30-30 for that matter..A good hit, a 25 to 50 yard run and dead, nothing exciting or should be expected..The bullets are usually hard, jackets too thick to expand on light bodies..AS A RULE.

If you want those dRT experiences use a light fast bullet such as a 257 Wby, 220 swift and expect lots of bloodshot meat..

Lot to be said for the 30-06 and its ilk in the deer and elk country or for camp meat on safari..

Ray, I have not done it, but I have often wondered about using a .450, .470 or .500, with a flat nosed solid, on deer sized animals.

The good thing about a big bore bullet is that, straight out of the muzzle, it will already nearly (or actually) have the diameter of an expanded .28 or .30 caliber bullet.

My sense is that a big bore would be effective, and would not spoil much meat, either.

The only reason I do it, is that I don't get to hunt as much anymore and want to be really comfortable shooting my 500 Jeffery. It really is hell on jack rabbits. I have an old (Japan model) Weatherby Mark V in 270 Weatherby I'm getting to know. Plan to use that as well.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Ray,
So far, everything that I have shot with my .405 WCF has been a DRT one shot kill. From red deer to water buffalo (DIMA - dead in mid air) Naturally this has a lot to do with shot placement, North Fork bullets, etc.
Same rifle with 400 grain Woodie put a bullet through the heart of my Cape Buff, but it did not know it was dead and began to walk, so another 400 Grain Woodie through the pelvis ended that game.

I've shot a lot of Texas game with my .416.

I shot a prairie dog with a 300WM with 200gr bullet. He crawled back to his hole but died just before going in. After shooting all of the dogs in that dog town we walked down to survey the damage. Well that little guy had a 30cal hole going in and a 30cal hole going out of his rib cage.
I've also shot rabbits with it and had almost the same result. 200gr bullets were just to hard for those tiny little bodies to cause them to expand any.

Years ago my neighbor's best friend went deer hunting with us. He had a Win Mod 70 in 375 H&H. They were all laughing about it but it was his only rifle he had left after his house had been broken into. He shot a deer with it and had to track that deer for a good while before finding it. I have no idea what ammo he used but it didn't look like it expanded on the deer.

I killed a good sized sage rat @ 50yds with a 375 H&H. Other than a bigger hole, the result wasn't any different than that of a 22rf @ the same distance.

The 30 cal hole story reminds me of a story:

Several years ago, while sneaking along a ridge top in central Texas (Comanche County to be more exact) in search of deer, a feral house cat spooked right at my feet and ran to my left.
Instinct took over and my M70 .308 came up and fired, and put a hole the size of my fist in the middle of the fleeing cat. The dead cat was only about 5 steps away and I left it for the scavengers to clean up.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I've shot a lot of Texas game with my .416.

Me too. Works great. I have been very surprised how easily 400gr Swift A-frames open on light game yet hold together exceptionally well on heavy game and bone!

Like always, it’s shot placement. I was deer hunting with a new .375 and 300 grain soft points when I came upon a small buck tangled in a barbed wire fence. Looked like at least one hip was dislocated and, with no help available, I couldn’t see a good outcome resulting from any attempt to free him. So I decided to put him out of his misery and harvest the meat.

The bullet hit him in the spine from what normally would have been “above” him. Resulted in an entrance wound that you could have easily put a grapefruit through.

Still not as bad as shooting a turkey with 300 grain soft from a .375…

I didn,t intend to give the impression that big bores don't kill, they do and they leave good blood trails when they run, but in most cases you can expect them to run 25 to 100 yards and die, expect the bullets not to open on light bodied animals..Ive had that happen many times, with the 404, 416, even my 470. Seen it many more times,and of course some are instant kills..and in my opinnion if you want spoiled meat, blood shot mess, use the fast killing light for caliber bulllets on small game, lot of DRT with that combo and then sometimes you never recover them..I have shot more African PG for the pot with solids in my big bores as they are targets of opertunity while hunting DG..They always kill but seldom instantly has been my experience...I was comenting on those with little experience who say "that big ole gun will blow a deer up too much ruined to eat" I get that a lot in whitetail camps etc..the they are amazed that as Elmer said, you can eat right up to the hole and he ain't far wrong on that..If you have had different results, count your lucky stars..but in the end all this makes little difference in the scheme of things..

I have used 2505, 270, 7mmm, 338, 375, 416 on all sorts of small game.

Never noticed any of them killed any better.

One animal would run a hundred yards, another one would drop stone dead.

Happens with the above mentioned calibers.

The bigger bore the more "thump" it has! Thus the bigger has a better chance of a DRT. This year's white tail buck was with a 350 grain 416 Ruger. I hit him a little far back. Did he run? Yes, about 50 foot! I shot a small buck with a 458 Lott, less meat damage than a similar 270 shot! Knocked more down with the big bores with far less meat loss! Fellow explained it to me" Its like BBQ, its all good some is just better!

I used a bolt action 45-70 for hunting squirrels and turkeys.
13 grains of Unique, 250 grain cast swc does a fine job of dropping a buck-toothed critter. The old gentleman that I gave them to didn't mind the big hole one bit.
A 400 grain cast bullet with a healthy load of IMR 4064 in the head or neck drops the bird right now. Hitting the bird in the breast does does drop him but messes up the meat a bit.

I have used 375 Ruger on Whitetail, Cow Elk, turkey (neck shots) Big Euro boar.

Hunted black bear with a 500 Nitro, but did not see one.

I wonder what the results would be firing big handgun bullets from a rifle.

Like a 300-400gr Jacketed Flat Point for a 475 Linebaugh fired from a 470 Nitro rifle.

Unfortunately, I don't own a 470 Nitro rifle, but I do have a 13" 470 Nitro pistol.....haven't shot anything with it, yet.

Tony

I love hunting everything and anything with big bores, but out of experience I get far more DRT impalas with the 308Win than with the 416s.

Bullets must be matched to game for spectacular kills, as for me I worry more about proper release of the trigger than the bullet or calibre when confronting marauding impalas.

If you use a solid then it needs to be a flat nose so as to do some serious damage.

Almost all of my Tiny Ten were shot with the 375 H&H using Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solids. Other small African critters were also killed with the same bullet and caliber as well. One hole going in and one hole going out, as long as you don't shoot through bone or shoulder, etc.

If you use solids, then break both shoulders on Impala, Springbok, etc..and yes a flat nose solid is somewhat more effective on the larger stuff, I never could tell much difference on the smaller animals, woodleighs RN solids worked for me. GS Customs flat nose work, the cup point was always a favorite of mine for DG and smaller animals.

Allow me to elucidate on the subject and suggest if one is intent on using big bores and "solids", then the bigger the hole in the bore, the better they work on big or small game..

Ray,

I killed two does on opening day with my .358 Norma Magnum. I was using 180 grain cast flat nose bullets with 32 grains of AA 5744.

Both were in the middle of a field, both ran for the trees, both barely made it. Both bullets exited, leaving a substantial blood trail.

Today, I'll be hunting with my .35 Newton, using a similar load. Both shoot one hole groups at 100 yards.

This is like some saying a 416 kills better than a 375!

All a load of ignorant bullshit!

Arm chair thoughts.

Totally unsupported by field experience!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is like some saying a 416 kills better than a 375!

All a load of ignorant bullshit!

Arm chair thoughts.

Totally unsupported by field experience!

I believe the correct term is Ballistic Masturbation

Sounds like food for thought, Ive shot a lot of Plains game doe deer with solids and most, not all, ran up to 25 to 100 yards, with a 416 404 9.3x64..

I base this solely on what Ive seen, and not saying they don't kill, they do but seldom even with softs to they drop at the shot unless you break both showder, I talking only heart lung shots, Heck Ive seen the same thin with the 30-06 with softs, so no big deal..

If everything one shoots drops on the spot, thats when the masterbation starts!!

Michigan and other States have gone to minimum 35 caliber 1.8" case. There's a lot of whitetails shot with 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster. They might not be long range but large bore calibers but under 200 yards they have done the job 100'000 of times, in the past several years.
Myself the first year that 35 caliber 1.8"+ could be used I contacted Cutting Edge Bullets told them they had a muzzleloader bullet that I would like to use in the 450 Bushmaster. Dan sent be a couple hundred 452" 160 gr Raptors with out the sabot to load in the 450 Bushmaster. I did some load development and got them going 2686 fps in a 20" AR gun. The next year in a bolt action I safely pushed them to 2875 fps.
I've shot over the past several years many bucks with the rifles only 1 went 20 yards all the rest were DRT. Great hunting a suburban farm of only 60 acres, with homes surrounding.
I can say also blood shot meat was a minimum with all behind the shoulder shots.

I have shot pigeons with a 460 Weatherby Magnum.

Watch it! Watch it! Boom! Poof!

Actually not.

It made a big hole in the pigeon.

I killed two does at the first of the season with my .358 Norma Magnum. The load was a 180 grain gas check cast bullet on top of 32 grains of AA5744. I'm having to learn to shoot left handed and the .358 is one of my few left handed bolt action rifles.
Both deer fled for the trees and just barely made it before succumbing. The bullets were not recovered.

quote:

Michigan and other States have gone to minimum 35 caliber 1.8" case. There's a lot of whitetails shot with 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster. They might not be long range but large bore calibers but under 200 yards they have done the job 100'000 of times, in the past several years.

I have a cousin in-law that shoots 60 to 100 deer each year. doing crop damage.

He use a 357max out of a 22inch contender and a 180 gr bullet says it works well.

I have a 357 max contender with a 16.5 barrel that has accounted for 40 or so.

The youngers using it just love it.

4.5 lbs short and handy.

As far as shooting critters with a big more.

I have shot from Pdogs to bears with my 416T

The best was my 16yoa daughter shooting a porcupine with it.

A 350gr mag tip did the job.

I told her she was most likely the only girl to do that for a long ways.

I often shoot pigs with my 400 H&H rifle on driven hunts. I have two reasons for this: one, I am training for an upcoming hunt in Africa, and the other, it is a pure pleasure for me to shoot this weapon. I have always been a bigger caliber proponent, but no fast caliber proponent. Bigger bullet travelling at moderate velocity is the standard formula for the meat hunter I represent.

While most of my hunting is done with my .257 Weatherby, I have taken plenty of squirrels, woodchucks, a turkey, a couple of rabbits, some whitetail, an elk, a few impala, kudu, couple of blue wildebeest and a couple of Cape Buffalo with my .416 Weatherby.

The .416 is always fun - especially when someone asks “You needed that to hunt rabbits?!”

I might give the being-built 600OK a try on white tails in 2022.

Merry Christmas all!

The longest death dash after a good hit that I have experienced while hunting elk was a rag horn bull I shot with a perfectly placed ( broadside, high double lung shot ) 400 gr. soft nose bullet from my .450-400 3" Nitro express. Elk was approx 100 M away, and ran over 200 M before tipping over in a thick patch of spruce. Small pieces of lung were hanging on the branches on the exit wound side. I have experienced about a dozen much quicker kills with similar shot placement with .308, 7x57, and .35 Whelen. Not sure why this bull hung on to life so stubbornly. In my experience of "Once" using an "elephant rifle" was no more decisive than much more moderate choices. I also suspect the bonded / thick jacket bullet was too tough for the job I chose it to do.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


I might give the being-built 600OK a try on white tails in 2022.

Merry Christmas all!

Another Overkill in the works? I recall you having one prior to the VC 600? Or was that a 585 AHR?

Merry Christmas!

The best I ever did was our first safari to Tanzania with Pierre. My wife really wanted to a Guinea Fowl for feathers which she had never seen before (this was before we knew they were easily buyable in the states). A "discussion" was had with the game scout and off we went to hunt Guinea fowl with a 375 H&H. Got one, but I had to hold it very carefully for the picture so it still sort of looked like a bird...

quote:

Originally posted by Brandon.Gleason:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


I might give the being-built 600OK a try on white tails in 2022.

Merry Christmas all!

Another Overkill in the works? I recall you having one prior to the VC 600? Or was that a 585 AHR?

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas Brandon,

I have had 2 600 OK and got my dad a 585AHR. Used in Zimbabwe on Cape buffalo.

Yep, you’re right, sold my last 600 OK - an AHR built on a Granit Mountain Action to get my 600NE.

Still have the 600 NE and dad still has the 585AHR (FUN with Trailboss).

Bought and have has a SS MRC PH action since they were first made and finally figured “Time to get it done.”

guess i'll say it.
the 45-70 has been working on deer elk moose and buffalo since like 1870 or so.
I'd imagine a few shots on bunnies have been made somewhere in all that time.

Ray, I take every opportunity for fun and keeping my eye in etc in shooting big calibers on smaller game. I’ve shot multiple impala, even fish, with my Gibbs .505 and NE .577. They have not just DRT but typically pirouetted or somersaulted. I ve been using my .458 Lott’s for deer hunting. Not quite as impressive as the big two but still very effective, and if it was legal, I d use the two big ones for deer. Use TSX for all of them. I usually take a double 45-70 for PG in Africa and also use it for deer season.

Shot a few deer and pigs with my 458 AccRel. One pig the guy with me said “ I have never seen the ground hit a pig that hard!