Gentlemen,

I stopped at Cabela's (Sidney, NE) today and looked at my 3 contenders for the 416 slot in my rack. Salesman laid out 3 rifles I asked about:

Ruger 77 II Safari - 416 Rigby (NIB - No Tag - Forgot To Ask - I Understand About $1300)
Win M-70 Safari - 416 Rem Mag ($970)
CZ 550 Safari - 416 Rigby ($679)

SCENARIO: I've already reconciled the differences in cartridge -- I'm down to reconciling the rifles themselves. FYI, I appreciate beautiful rifles, but I am a bit more on the utilitarian side and I don't require my rifles all have a "certain" look (Mossberg 338, M70 375HH, Sako 338, Siamese Mauser 45-70 for example -- all pretty different.) Assuming good fit, trigger, accuracy, and reliability I am more concerned about cartridges than manufacturers.

PLEASE HELP: I would like to run some of the things I was told and what I observed past your collective "BS" meter as a cross check. (In no particular order).

** (1) STOCK FIT: I am 6'5". I closed my eyes and threw each one up to my shoulder, snuggled into it and opened my eyes. The Win M70 and Ruger 77 were both too short for me and would need 1.0 to 1.5" added to keep my thumb out of my nose/upper lip. The "hog back" CZ was very close to fitting (within a 1/2 inch or less) and the iron sights lined up perfect each time. Also what I imagined would be the "center point of a scope" also felt the best of the three. Am I missing something here? Why would the lowly "hog back" stock fit better?

** (2) RECOIL PADS: Salesperson said CZ has recently upgraded to shipping Pachmayer (sp) recoil pads (it was about 3/4" and felt the same as the Win M70) and said that there is a 1.5" Magnum Pachmayer available that could help fit the rifle - is there any downside to doing this?

** (3) STOCK STRENGTH: CZ looked to be as good a quality (both metal and wood) as the Winchester M70; however, the M70 stock had two large cross bolts to the CZ's smaller one. Is it necessary to beef the CZ stock up (right from the git) with additional cross bolts and glass bedding? Or does CZ have something going internally that's not obvious from the "outside"? What is the difference between glass and steel bedding and is one better than the other for strengthening a CZ stock?

** (4) TRIGGERS: Ruger trigger was 8 lbs out of the box. M70 was 5 lbs. CZ was 2.75 regular and .75 at the set position! Is having a "set" trigger on a DGR bad news or an advantage? Are they reliable? Does the CZ lend itself to easy trigger adjustment to boost the trigger pull to say 4 pounds "regular" and 2 pounds "set"? (other pull recommendations?)

** (5) SAFETY: I love the M70-3 position safety; however, only two of my guns have it and I "get along" with the others (watch the bolt handle on the Mossberg and of course the Remington 700 problem). I'm told the CZ safety DOES block the striker and observed it "locks down" the bolt. Other than not being a M-70 style is there really anything fundamentally wrong with it?

** (6) QUALITY/UPGRADING: Salesman said they have seen CZ's quality improve quite a bit in the last 45 days:
(A) Improved checkering - not real dense - but now uniform and sharp to the grip.
(B) Stock wood is no longer "yellow" (was it ever?) and is now a more "normal" medium walnut look (Wood looked like the M70)
(C) Recoil Pads (mentioned earlier).

** (7) AMMO: Salesperson said they are selling more 416 Rigby ammo than 416 Rem Mag ammo (Seems unlikely to me). He also said Remington quit manufacturing ammo for the 416 Rem Mag for a couple of years even though they continued to sell rifles during the same period. True?

I regret that I've essentially asked you to write an encyclopedia. Please feel free to answer any one part or all.

Thanks in advance,
EKM

[ 02-24-2003, 11:40: Message edited by: ELKampMaster ]

CZ has been around a very long time and build a very decent rifle at a givaway price.The recoil pad to use is called the "Decelerator" by Pachmayer. They really soften the felt recoil. The stock is a little longer due to the fact that a lot of the Eastern Europeans are tall and lanky and need the additional length on the stock. The set trigger is a very reliable unit although not really necessary on a 416 Rigby. I would most likely have a competent gunsmith check the bedding on the rifle and if necessary glass bed it. Trying to add cross bolts to a finished stock is a real pain in the ass and really not necessary on the rifle.I am certain that the trigger is adjustable and if not an after market trigger could be added very reasonably. Don't worry about the safety, it is excellent.
I can say that after owning all three of the rifles you are asking I like the CZ. I hope this helps you a little.

David

ELKampMaster,
Ditto holland465.

The CZ currently comes with a Decelerator pad by Pachmayr, from the factory. Replacing it with a 1.5" thick Pachmayr F990 Triple Magnum pad will make it fit you well, it seems. I like a 14" pull, so the CZ factory is fitting them just right for me, out of the box.

The Lux stock suits me to a "T" I am proud to say.

Glass bed the CZ at least. Other refinements I have done are pillar bedding, and a second cross bolt, hidden or visible, at the primary action recoil lug. The barrel recoil lug has a steel bedding block in the forearm that can also be glassed in.

The CZ has a better bedding system than the Ruger, but the Winchester does not have the contraption on the barrel that the CZ and the Ruger have, but the better standard barrel lug and action lug that the Ruger lacks. The Ruger has only the big recoil plate on the barrel, and no primary action recoil lug. Winchester wins here. But all three seem to get by.

Trigger. CZ trigger is fine. Winchester is best. Ruger can be reworked or replaced.

Safety: Winchester is best, Ruger is second, CZ works, and I can live with it. I have replaced a couple with the PME 3-position, but it is more a sex appeal thing than a functional issue. At least it is not a "bassackward" BRNO safety.

Wood is fairly variable on the CZ. Some have figure, some are plain, look for good grain direction through the grip area. Rugers seem to have the best wood on average, to go with the price tag. Winchesters are fairly consistent average wood.

Ammo: Sales of the Rigby must be going up because of this web site.

One great advantage the CZ has is the factory target that comes with the gun. Look for a 3/4" 100 meter 3-shot group. I have found one like that on two occasions, and I bought them both, in .416 Rigby.

My most accurate .416 Rigby, with my hand loads, was the Ruger, a later production fat muzzle (0.810").

The Rugers now come lighter barreled, but with the magnificent integral quarter rib, are still the heaviest, at around 9.5 lbs. Winchester is in the middle just over 9 lbs., and the slim barreled CZ is just under 9 or right at 9 lbs.Add a light scope and rings and ammo and sling and it will be a comfortable field-ready 10.5 lbs. or less. The others will be 10.5 to 11 lbs. equiped the same.

You will have a hard time making the Winchester or Ruger go to your length of pull without adding spacers that might require refinishing the stock.

It sounds like the CZ would be the best buy for you, or anyone, who wanted a .416.

Remember to check the factory target, they are reliable. Some of them come with 2.5" groups. Don't buy one of those. Hold out for a three quarter incher. I am sure that Ruger and Winchester accuracy can be variable too, but you have to buy them to find out.

Here's my feedback
1: the CZ is the gem for an 800$ gun, when you change it to a model 70 safety.

2: i HATE the stock, but it shoots fine.. but, if you look at pics of my guns, they are stright back

3: the winchester, while it's MY OWN 416, is a wanna be in not being a rigby

4: if the ruger fit you, it's the best deal on earth for what it is

5: get the cz, change the safety and pad, shoot it till you hate it, and sell it for what you got in it.

jeffe

Oh yeah, those CZ triggers are adjustable, and you can eliminate the set feature if you desire, but I do not desire. You never know when you might need the hair trigger in a stealthy ambush situation, otherwise just squeze off with the unset trigger if in a hurry. Good trigger.

Holland465, Thanks for your response. I appreciate the fact you have owned all three makes and rate the CZ highly - good insights.

DaggaRon and Jeffeosso

I've followed this forum quite a bit and I've seen that you are a couple of the heavy hitters on the Big Bore section and make for some interesting reading. Jeffe I know you have responded to a couple of my posts before. I've been in your shoes in other threads and other forums, "They ask for advice -- you give it -- and then you see them working a different angle on it looking for "more" advice -- gets frustrating." I'm happy to report that I'm close to putting this one to bed and then I can post the "doing it" instead of "thinking about it!"

With that said just a little housekeeping:

**DaggaRon - What would be a "ball park" retail number for all the following in sum: glassbed, pillarbed, second crossbolt, and the forearm steel block glass bedding? (+-$100)

**DaggaRon - you mentioned "look for good grain direction through the grip area". I've sorted 2x4's grain and knot holes, but.... I'm assuming you want the wood at the grip to "flow" with the curve of the grip .... or is it that you just don't want any flaws at that juncture?

**DaggaRon/Holland465/Jeffeosso - Trigger pull. In cold weather (elk or waterfowl) I don't want it too light because of cold, numb fingers. Varmit hunting, I don't want it heavy since it is a "finely held" shot so.... what's the guidelines on DGR triggers?

** Jeffeosso - perhaps more than any one individual your enthusiasm for the Rigby has constantly caused me to take second stock of the 416 RemMag.

I look forward to "wrapping this up."

DaggaRon -- I see you were on while I was writing this up -- thanks.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

Elk,
Thanks for the feedback.. You can't go wrong with a taylor, remington, or rigby.. but the rigby is NOSTALGIA, the rest are blow ins... and I have a remington, have built taylors, and love to shoot rigbys...

of course, you could always get a wound-a-beast and load it down to rigby...

just kidding..

on straight grain through the stock, that means no real figure...

Oh, hell.. forgot to mention, if you get ANY of these, make DAMN sure you have 1/16" or slightly more, clearance from the rear of the action to the wood... you don't want that receiver being used as a splitting wedge.

jeffe

Go with the CZ550. Add a second crossbolt to the stock yourself and steelbed the whole thing. It will perform very satisfactorily for you. In the future, the CZ action can be a great platform for a much more powerfull cartridge like the 500A2.-Rob

I love the CZ's I have a .375 & .416 and am very happ with my choice. Don't knock the stock until you have tried it !!

ELKampMaster,

I can't argue more than others, CZ is the best choice for the price.

I own both the CZ and the Ruger. If I had it to do over again I'd stick with the Ruger. I hated the CZ stock and replaced it with a McMillan. Also shortened the CZ barrel, added a barrel ring and replaced the CZ front with a NEGC front. By the time I did all the modifications the CZ cost me as much as the Ruger and I didn't get a really nice wooden stock or quarter rib. I like both my rifles and they both are roughly 1.25-1.5 MOA rifles depending on loads. My Ruger came with a very acceptable trigger around 4# with a very crisp letoff. I also prefer the Ruger safety.

Does anybody make a tang safety for any of these guns? I would think that has to be about position safety on a DG gun....

elk
Just took delivery on a CZ 550- 416 Rigby, last evening. Cannot comment on the Ruger as I never owned one, but do have a Win Model 70 in 416 Rem.

The stock of the CZ is disapointing and with one cross bolt and no glass bedding will have an expected short life, just like the factory Win 70. As was stated, you need a second crossbolt and glass bedding, but I would select a straight stock cut for your dimensions from a nice piece of wood.

The CZ has surprising crisp trigger pull but the bolt cycling is a bit rough for me and would rquire a little attention.

The way I view it, the Classic Win 70 safari grade rifle is a good value for a limited number of big bore calibers, and has a good smooth action and 3 position wing safety; however out of the box needs some gun smith work.

The CZ, with the double bridge mauser action, is larger and needs the same attention + a new stock. But it has potention for larger calibers and is a great platform for this. Not to sure I would keep it as a 416 Rigby. By the way my 3 shot ave is 1.25 MOA. Probably the CZ 550 is a good purchase based on the action potential alone.

Good luck on your decision. pm

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all your input BOTH pro AND con. One learns much from wading through the negatives and reconciling them -- the positives, well they take care of themselves.

For me the "break point" for deciding whether the CZ would even be in the running was how the "hog back" stock (which I despised from studying pictures) would come across in person. My trip to Cabelas with the three rifles laid side by side, stood my preconceptions on their head. The hog back/Lux/Bavarian Comb stock fit and felt great and I kept catching my self looking at the price tag and pinching myself.... at this price I could buy two.... one in 416 Rigby and one in .....!

No doubt the CZ does not have the "grace" of a "American Sporter" style of rifle that many including myself are used to having progressed from deer rifles, to heavier magnums, and then on to "big bores", but then perhaps form follows function -- its a DGR -- a "bad boy" that doesn't apologize for its "European" bloodline, "bulging" magazine, and massive action. If the Ruger had fit me like a glove and had the same feel or if the Win M70 had been available in 416 Rigby I would have truly been in a quandry. Different strokes for different folks I guess -- ran into a CZ ambush at Cabelas!

Side Note:
I have a picture of a synthetic stock Weatherby advertised as a DGR a year ago in the American Rifleman. Its spooky how much the stock looks like the CZ hog back stock -- at least to my untrained eye. I've never scanned anything onto a forum before, even though I have the equipment. For "communal amusement" I'll give it a shot.

Questions:
** (1) What do you recommend for trigger pull for DGR in Africa ("regular" and "set")?

** (2) Have you heard if Remington did in fact halt 416 Rem Mag ammo production for a period of time before resuming it?

Thanks In Advance,

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

Go with the cz. Bloody impossible to beat.

ELKampMaster,
The best trigger pull for me is 3.5 lbs for a crisp single stage, in any big game hunting rifle, deer or dangerous game. The set trigger at 1 pound is good for me.

The stock grain through the grip should be straight, unfigured, dense, parallel to the long axis of the stock and thus less ikely to pop a divot or crack. The CZ's of late have been very adequately relieved at the tang recess as Jeffe advises you be sure.

Bedding with pillars and second crossbolt: $200 or less.

The Ruger Magnum bedding system is fine for a .375 H&H. In a .416 Rigby you need to discard the recoil plate and add an action lug and a barrel lug to bring it up to tiddly winks. It will cost far more to get a Ruger faultless in an over 40 bore than a CZ. The CZ does have a great integral express sight island instead of the gorgeous quarter rib on the Ruger. That Ruger integral quarter rib is what makes them worthwhile.

The Lux stock works great! I have McMillan and ArmTec synthetics for the CZ and a laminate stock for the big BBK-02, and I can say I enjoy the CZ Lux in comfort and accuracy when using it. To hell with the snobs that have no Bavarian appreciation. That stock works on a hard kicker.

You are right about the Weatherby stock reference. It creates much the same contact points between the shooter and rifle as the Lux. However the Lux is much more tastefully executed than the Weatherby. The Lux is like a Toyota Land Cruiser with PHC at the wheel. The Weatherby is like Elvis driving a pink Cadillac.

I like Ruger best for big calibers.My wildcat
on my 77 has 20% more energy than neighbors 460 Wea, and is easier to shoot.I like the way the barrel ring is mounted, and it takes recoil great
in conjunction with
The bedding bar that some don't like.It's the best
and strongest way to handle recoil.In testing five
hundred of rounds offhand over 3 years I never had the bedding fail.and we are talking about
twice the recoil of a 458 Win.And another 1400 on the bench locked to heavy tripod.The stock did crack in the grip, so I put on an old heavy hard maple stock.The bedding bar is so good the maple stock doesn't need crossbolts.No mag well.I wish Ruger made a big version with 1.25 inch barrel threads
and longer stroke for BMG size cases.I'd get one for my big wildcat ,I am developing now.Ed.

EKM:

I recommend the CZ 550. I appreciate the test targets that accompany the CZ. The rifles I am aware of all shot exactly like their test targets indicated - tells me craftsmen are involved in the process. I like that. These rifles feed, fire, and eject. Accuracy is generally MOA.

I appreciate the Bavarian stock design. I really like the combination of the Bavarian stock and Mag-Na-Porting for recoil management on the 416.

Buliwyf

DaggaRon:

Did you do your own bedding work and cross bolt installation or have a gunsmith do the work? Do you have a recommendation(s)for someone to do the beeding work on CZ 550 416's.

Thank you.

I don't think you can have others' experience forego yours. In the end, you need to buy or borrow these rifles to make a decision. Having had all three...

1) For a 416, the potentially lighter weight of the Win,. Mod.70 is the way I went.

2) The hog back lux stock is terrible. I replaced it with a McMillan straight stock and only use it with open sights and it works fine.

3) The Ruger is just too heavy for an old man.

Even after you buy one of them there is plenty to do as to modifying them to suit yourself and fix problems, and they all have their share of "problems."

There is no one best of the three. It depends on what you are going to do with it (hunting or plinking), etc., etc.

Anyone of them will do, but you would have to get all three to really make a genuine decision.

Will

Buliwyf,
I have been doing my own bedding, pillars, and crossbolts since the late 1980's.

On the CZ's, I have done a few on my own, but when rebarreling and rechambering them, I have the gunsmith do it. Kevin Jenkins is one of the best at this work. He lives in Brentwood, TN now. He is the Gun Tailor, and involved in Black Mamba accuracy rifles and tungsten core bullets as partner and gunsmith.

Any gunsmith worth his salt can do a good job of it, as long as he is not allergic to epoxy!

Right now I am having Rusty McGee (of Falls of Rough, KY, Hilltop Gun Shop) do my bedding on CZ's that he works on for me. He is making a second crossbolt to match the one that is already in the current Lux stocks. The next one in the works is a stainless barreled .338 Lapua Magnum.

I spend too much time on this web site. I will have to get back to my pre-ar.com ways soon, and do more reloading, shooting, hunting and my own glass bedding. Blasted seductive computer! I work too.

As Will said, I have all three, and have formed my opinion.

The CZ 550 Safari Magnum can be turned into a better rifle more easily. I do find the Lux stock much to my liking, as much as any walnut stock can be to my liking, delicate as they are. To me, however, the ultimate stock is the synthetic like a McMillan, and I like their classic styled express stock most of all. But I sure like the Lux, like a Land Cruiser. McMillan is the Humvee.

Thanks Ron.

Bob

DaggaRon,

Where do I find ArmTec stocks? I did a search and there were no hits.

Thanks...Catter

Remington used to sell a factory load with a 400 gr. Barnes solid at 2,400 f/s. This load has been discontinued.

As for brass, Remington seems to produce large batches only every number of years and hence sometimes there are availability problems. It seems this is the usual procedure with all companies. The 416 Rem has been all in all a great success for Remington, and although many have prophesied its demise, I do not think that is going to happen soon.

If you are a reloader, another plus of the 416 Rem is that you can fireform 375 H&H brass easily.

Antonio

Wildcatter,
Nickudu was the source of my ArmTec synthetic stock for the CZ 550 Safari Magnum. You might email him and see if he or his Sabi Rifle connection have a line on them. I only paid $200 for one delivered from Nick, then I replaced the butt pad with a Pachmayr F990 Triple Magnum, and glass bedded it. It came with aluminum pillars and bedding block for the barrel recoil lug. It looks like a Bell and Carlson externally, same wrinkle paint, molded checkering, and overall shape.