I read somewhere recently that there are a few people who have chambered rifles to .450 WSM. They say it will equal .450 Ackley velocities.

I had been debating turning my Win 70 SS .375 Mag into a .458 Lott, but I really like the idea of getting the same performance out of a shorter action.

What do you all think?

Rob,

Try looking at Jim Busha's .450" HE Short Mag -- this is a .450 WSM in Winchespter speak. He also has a slightly longer version, the .460.

I have one of the .450 rifles for evaluation (if my GS bullets ever get here).

The web site shows:

450 Short Mag (short action)

400 grain 2,430 fps
450 grain 2,240 fps
500 grain 2,100 fps

.460 Short Mag (standard action)

400 grain 2,500 fps
450 grain 2,375 fps
500 grain 2,210 fps

http://www.heavyexpress.com/Index.html

jim dodd

Rob,

If the 450 WSM could equal the 450 Ackley then the 300 WSM would have to be able to equal the 300 Wby.

Mike

Rob... winchester long ago made the "450 wsm" and called it the 458 winchester mag, and it sucks
take care sf

Rob,

If you're looking for 458 lott performance from a std length action, then you're looking at the 450 G&A which is a 404 Jeffrey shortened to 2.5". Can also be formed from Rem Ultra Mag brass if you don't mind the slightly rebated rim, and want to use a belted mag action w/ mods to the bolt.

I don't think there would be enough shoulder to headspace on if you necked the .300WSM up to .458 and I doubt that even if you could, would you get much more velocity than the existing .458 WinMag.

May I ask how the .450wsm is formed? I'm really interested in the sound of this?

The ballsitics of this round do not seem to add much over your regular .458 win mag do they??

Rob,

I prefer my .450 Ackley made from .375H&H brass.

Even the .460 HE standard has a velocity lower than .450 Ackley about 150 fps.

I just got out some sample cases. The .450 SAM case measures 2.083" in length, while the .460 case measures 2.246". The case head runs .543".

They are shorter than the .458 Win Mag case's 2.500", and way shorter than the Ackley's 2.850" -- both of those on belted .513" body diameter cases.

Shorter cases usually means smaller internal volume, with resulting higher pressures to reach the same muzzle velocity for a given bullet weight as a larger case. Increasing the volume by increasing the head size of the case mitigates some of the problem.

I don't have any information on what pressures the Heavy Express cartridges operate at. Data I have seen on the .458 WM and Ackley show average peak pressure over 62,000 psi (piezo). I expect the H-E loads are up there too.

jim dodd

The 450 WSM I assume will be based on the shortened version of the 404 Jeff case. I doubt it would be much better if at all than the 458 Win Mag. A full sized 450 made on the full sized 404 case, however, should outperform the 450 ackley! The 450 ackley will launch a 500 gr bullet at slightly over 2400 fps ( I have verified this as I have two of them). I sincerely doubt the 450 WSM will significantly exceed the 458 win which at best will do 2100 with a 500 gr bullet. A full sized 450 on the 404 case should do about 2500 fps with a 500 gr bullet.
Unfortunately as many people have had to learn the hard way, with respect to hunting dangerous game, any velocity over 2400 fps tends to result in bullet blow-up, poor penetration, and or bad performance even with solids. This is why the 460 wby has such a bad rap in Africa, While the Lott's and 450 Ackleys and even lowly .416 Rigby's get nothing but praise.-Rob

[ 06-13-2002, 19:29: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

I have the .416 HESAM, which is nothing much different than the .300 WSM necked up to .416. It feeds quite well through a standard Ruger short action magazine. I've never loaded it very hot, and it gets 2240 fps with Hornady solids and softs out of a 22" barrel with brass lasting 10 loads without triming or necks cracking. The load manual has stiffer loads, but I don't see much need for them. I'd imagine it would kill anything that a .404 Jeffery would and recoil is not noticable. Both solids and softs land in the same 1" to 2" depending on my concentration.

[ 06-13-2002, 19:46: Message edited by: judgeg ]

Although there would be no earthly reason for it's existence, the idea of a 450WSM is almost appealing. Sure it only manages to slightly better a hot loaded 45/70 but so what? It couldn't be any more difficult to get good feeding than with my Siamese mauser. Not the dumbest idea i've seen by quite a ways. Regards, Bill

Bill.......how are you going to safely headspace this beltless wonder?

It's almost funny, but there legions of experienced hunters who claim that the original, 1956 .458 Win. Mag. doesn't have what it takes in terms of case capacity to provide the velocities required for reliable penetration and killing power with 500 gr. bullets. Now a few of the guys are getting all giddy at the thought of a .450 WSM. Go figure!

AD

DB Bill,

I don't think heasdspace would be problem for a reloader with case on 45. It would be better in that respect than the 460 G&A. The most painful thing would be getting from 30 up to 45. The bottom 1/3rd of the neck would have been formed from the 300 WSMs shoulder.

Mike

Allen,

I think not everyone considering a 45 is looking towards African dangerous game use, and thus a bolt gun equivalent of the 45-70 has an appeal to it.

OK, guys, looked up the source of the statement I recalled. It was Terry Wieland in his article on the last page of the May/June RifleShooter magazine. Looked at it again, and he says the .450 WSM "will exceed" the .450 Ackley velocities! Now, maybe Terry has been smoking something a little stronger than tobacco, but I believe I have read articles where he was praising his .450 Ackley, so he has some experience there.
Anyway, that is where the idea came from.

Also, a consideration may be barrel length. From a 20" or 22" bbl, the larger diameter case should have some advantage. Oh, and I suppose the lighter bullets might be what he was referring to as well.

[ 06-14-2002, 03:57: Message edited by: Rob ]

If you want a bolt-action equivalent of the hot .45/70 take a look at the .450 Marlin.

DB Bill,
If you want a bolt-action equivalent of the hot .45/70 take a look at the .450 Marlin.[/QUOTE]

A .450 Alaskan is an other option

A .50 Alaskan in a handy bolt Carbine would be alright to I reckon. You could have an 18" inch barrel on it McMillan Stock, all stainless. Fitted with a 2.5 leupold compact or ghost rings.

I'm sure there would be enough shoulder to headspace ok. I would neck up by fire forming. The resultant case would be a rimless 450 Alaskan. As I said, no real reason for it's existence but it would work out ok. Regards, Bill.

Yesterday I gave my photographer a .348 Win case, a .450 HE SAM and a .460 HE SAM case to do a "picket fence" photo for an article I am working on.

After he does thing I will post the photo on this thread, as it seems a graphic image is worth the proverbial 1,000 words. There is plenty of shoulder to headspace the rimless cases.

jim dodd

Did Terry wieland publish the comparative case capacities of the 450WSM and compare them to the 450 Ackley? This would enequivocably demonstrate whether or not the 450 WSM was in a class even remotely comparable to the 450 Ackley. I frankly, don't doubt the 450 WSM will be more efficient than the 458Win Mag, but unless it has an equivalent powder capacity to the 450 Ackley, it will not possibly be able to match it's performance with bullet weights exceeding 300 grs IMHO.-Rob

This was a passing reference by Wieland in an article where he was prognosticating that the new magnums by Win and Rem are a watershed moment in hunting cartridges. He did reference a gunsmith's name in connection with the .450 WSM. I will dig it up and post it here FWIW.

I do not believe he was referencing the .450 Alaskan, but maybe it was a misprint and the editor mistook Alaskan for Ackley.

Hello all,

Long time, no post, I'm sure many would say to me.I have been writing my senior thesis and have not visited these pages for two months. Anyway.

I was wondering if Winchester ever came out with the 338WSM. That case would get you .030 closer to the finished diameter neck you would need for a 458WSM. I have a Rem 700 short action I would like to build into a short, light carbine with alot of thump. This is beginning to sound like the ticket.

Head spaceing would be no problem in my figuring. The base dia. of the 300 short mag is actually .555. Check my math but I think this would leave a .027 per side shoulder for proper headspacing. I don't have the comparative case capacities in front of me for various .458 caliber cartridges but I speculate that this round would produce the velocities that the WinMag case was intended for. If I built this rifle, I would most likely use it for Texas hogs and brush hunting deer. I might would take it on a brown bear hunt in thicket. If I could accomplish similar velocity to the shortest HeMag round in a carbine length rifle (20" barrel, 450gr at 2100 fps plus) I think it would be a worthwhile endevor.

By the way, I would like to obtain a GS, FN and a tungstun solid in .458 for my collection. If anyone is willing to part with one each, I would much appreciate it.

Thanks and have a good evening,

Catter

[ 06-18-2002, 05:43: Message edited by: Wildcatter ]

Here is Wieland quote:

"John Bolliger, the Idaho custom riflemaker who specializes in mountain rifles, but also makes dangerous-game bolt actions for Africa, says the wildcat .450 based upon the Winchester short magnum case delivers higher velocity than the .450 Ackley (John's specialty), with lower pressures."

So there it is - he is not talking about the .450 Alaskan or .450/.348 Ackley.

Rob,

You can quote from articles all day, but it won't change the outcome

Again, if you can get the same velocities from a 458 WSM as the 450 Ackley, then the 300 WSM should really be something above and beyond what both Winchester and 300 WSM owners have been getting from the 300 WSM.

Bigger case capacity = More velocity

if the same peak pressure is used.

Mike

Mike, I am not saying I agree, just asking opinions, and I see that you are calling it "Bulls**t".

I would note that in the same article Wieland thinks the WSM wildcats will give similar case capacity to the .375 H&H, but that does not seem quite right to me. Maybe Bolliger blows it out to a short neck, I don't know.

May try and e-mail Weiland just for grins.

[ 06-20-2002, 23:25: Message edited by: Rob ]

For what it's worth, the short Lazzeroni cartridge called the Patriot has a head size of 0.577" which is larger than either the WSM or SAUM by Remington. John Lazzeroni has necked this up to .338, .375 and .416 with results that equal the .338 WinMag, the .375 H&H and the .416 Taylor (400gr at almost 2400 fps)....John told me he stopped at .416 because he didn't feel there was enough shoulder to do a .458.....I sure wouldn't want a DGR caliber that I wasn't 100% sure of...would you?

Guys- I think this is a simple case of a gun writer getting things wrong! I was at SCI in Vegas this year and looked at John Bollingers stuff! I get good ideas from these guys! John had a 450 there based on the 404 Jeff- full length cartridge. Same as the 450 version of the full length RUM but without the rebatted rim.. This cartridge will out-perform the 450 Ackley. I never saw or even heard anything about the 450 WSM. My guess is Terry Wieland just got the story wrong. -Rob

Smallfrey

If the 458 Win mag "sucks" why does one of the most prolific African hunters still alive use it now as his sole weapon? Harry Selby ring a bell? Robert Ruark's side kick and others for many a year. He abandoned the 416 Rigby and 470 NE and others COMPLETELY for the 458 WM. Check out June 2002 American Rfleman. No disrespect meant at all nor trouble just an opinion. The whole"458 is overstrained" club does not have enough in their camp to discredit this successful but nonetheless les powerful round.

awtc you are absolutly right... it has been one of the most popular and successful DG calibers used, however... it is not a small crowd that wouldnt even bother with the cartridge today, and I am one of them. Its a shame that in 1956, Winchester didnt go with a full length (375) version.
take care sf

I think you can measure the amount of "suck" in the .458 Win Mag record by the emergence of the .458 Lott. Jack Lott's creation began life as a wildcat, and now it is being chambered by at least two American factories. Also at least two ammunition companies are selling the ammunition in their lines.

Most telling is the fact that Winchester chambers the .458 Lott from their Custom Shop.

jim dodd

Small Frey

I must defer to your experience in this matter as the truth is that I have no experience with this round...only the 416 Rigby which I shoot out of a 15 in encore at full power. So, I am sure you are right; just thought I would put it out there. What are you using at present...Lott? Thanks Sir

AW

awtc... My first "real" big bore was a winchester 458 mod 70, But then went on to a 450 ack in a 700. I now shoot a 458 lott in a 70 and am quite happy with it.
take care sf

hate to be stubborn about this, but the 450 wsm is more or less identical to the 450 jamison, as 2.2" and 90 gr of case capacity and posted at 65000 psi. a 300 wsm is 2.1 " long, but you would gain length with you straight wall it.

the 450 ackley is like 2.85" long brass, 109 gr of case capacity and at 62k psi.

the 450(8) alaskan is 2.25" long, 97 grain of case and like 45k psi.

Unless you go to about 100000 psi, you can NOT get the same velocity of the modified WSM as a straight walled 375 case. Ackley wrote "the Norma basic cyndrical brass is just about perfect for making the 450 ackley"
I am not shooting a 450 alaskan this week, because the one I normally shoot is in africa. It can get 2200 FPS (+ if moly coated) out of a 26" barrel on a browning 1871, with a 400 grain bullet, using 3031. That's something in the area of 37000 psi (much more, and the action springs, causing sticky brass)
Either way, the 450 wsm is less capacity than the 450 ackley mag, and even less than the old lever action 1871 based 450 alaskan.
You can do the math, but it is not possible (assuming same bullet weight and powder) to have matching balistics. It's more comparable to the 450 alaskan, or even the HE MAG, that is loosely based on a de-rimmed 450 alaskan running at higher pressure.
In short, either the writer overreached or there was a typo. It just aint possible to get there from here, and you certainly wouldnt want a critical pressure level round in an african (or texas summer) riffle.

loads and lengths care of quickload.
jeffe

The 450 WSM would be a fine short action bolt gun choice. I have a 416-350 REm Mag and I looked into rechambering too 416-WSM. The WSM is able to about duplicate the older short magnums like the 264W/7mmRem/338W and 458 W with a few grains less powder. They are not at their best with heavy for caliber bullets as the bullet will begin to impinge on powder capacity. In 458 version I imagine you could get near 2400ft/sec with 400 grain bullets and it would leave the 45-70/450 Marlin in the dust as it has more case capacity. Winchetser clearly used the 348 case as their inspiration for the WSM line and the 450 WSM would be very similar to the 45-348 (450 Alaskan) but with a rimless case and in a bolt gun capable of more pressure.