I bought a brand new Winchester Classic Safari Express rifle, left-handed, in 375 H&H caliber in March. Defective. Sent it back. Got a defective factory replacement. Wrote to Customer Service. Told them not to send me another rifle. They said they could fix this one. I doubted them. They said they could replace anything on it if necessary. I thought this would be fun to watch. The rifle appeared to need all new screws and stock furniture, a new stock, receiver, trigger guard, barrel, and floorplate. That and some work to solve a feeding problem.

I got the rifle back today. I'm astonished. So far, I can't find a good cosmetic blemish on it. I could whine about an other than absolute match of plastic to wood on the recoil pad, but what teeny overhang there is would not have kept me from buying this gun off the rack (for you right-handed readers, seeing a correct-handed bolt gun on the rack is a rare pleasure for a lefty). The ejection ports on the two previous rifles screamed "ugly pitted piece of cast iron" to all but the legally blind. This one looks beautiful. Smooth metal, even bluing tone. All the screws but one are impeccable. The front action screw shows the barest attention of a screwdriver, and it will look worse before I am done with this rifle, so I can't complain too much.

The barrel is not centered in the barrel channel On Rifle 1, it was free floated right back to the chamber (that and the rear sling stud were the only two good things about Rifle 1). Rifle 2's barrel was tight against the wood on one side with a big gap on the other. On Rifle 3, I can slide a dollar bill all the way back to the chamber on the left side, but I can barely wedge tissue paper between metal and wood on the right. At the front end, the wood is definitely in contact with the metal. I will have a gunsmith look at this and send a bill to Winchester.

Well, I'm off to clean off the Cosmoline and do some function and scope-mounting tests. If this was the first rifle I'd got, so far I haven't discovered a defect that would have made me awfully disappointed in buying a Winchester. I figured on a bedding job and trigger job. So far, so good.

H. C.

hang in there HC! Be sure and swab out the chamber too! I haven't had one case stick on my RH Model 70. Hope your shoot as nicely as mine!

Good Hunting!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Thanks Rusty,

So far, so good. I can't say I'm disappointed in what Winchester Customer Service did for this gun.

Smoothness of action cycling:

Rifles 1 and 2 were so rough I thought that I was spoiled using a 3-lug Browning bolt and that there was something inherently awkward in using a two-lug 90 degreee throw bolt. I even posted over on African Hunting to ask how to use a 2-lug bolt gun. Rifles 1 and 2 were that bad. Rifle 3 feels much smoother.

Feeding test:

Rifle 3 feeds more smoothly than Rifles 1 or 2. Bullet noses are less gouged and battered than before, but not intact. When I work the bolt very slowly, the cartridge does not hop out ahead of the extractor, but always hooks up properly, extractor grabbing the rim. One funny thing: when the bolt is worked slowly, the cartridge case head does not slide smoothly up the bolt face, but rather seems to stick at its initial point of contact until the bolt is about halfway forward. At this point, the cartridge pops up suddenly and noisily out of the magazine and in line with the chamber. Is it supposed to do that? Shouldn't I be able to chamber a round quietly and smoothly? The problem doesn't appear to be with the bolt face, because it is smooth and doesn't have any burrs or anything.

Scope mounting test:

Four 6-48 taps in the scope mounting screw holes pretty much line up in one straight line, and also with the iron sights on the barrel. I think I will be able to put a mount and zero a scope without too much problem. I wanted to be pretty sure about this, because I don't have immediate plans to mount a scope. The two forward scope mounting screw holes are nicely counterbored so the filler screws sit about 0.001" below flush with the top of the receiver. The two rearward screw holes are not counterbored, and the filler screws are just the tiniest bit above flush with the top of the receiver .

Finish inspection:

What's the back end of the bolt called? Not the handle, but the rear cap thing that surronds the striker and the safety is attached to? Anyway, the metal on that thing shows some tool marks, and some pitting, and some rust . The striker also has small pitted, rusted patches on its rear corners . The barrel looks great. You just can't believe how rough looking and ugly the barrels on the first two rifles were.

Trigger:

3 3/4 lb. How did that get past the USRAC legal dept?

Magazine follower:

Pink. Kind of flops around. If you push down on one end or the other, it gets stuck at a funny angle in the magazine box. This doesn't happen as often when you push it down with cartridges as when you use your fingers.

I plan to make a chamber casting with Cerrsafe to be sure they did that right and to have my gunsmith re-bed the rifle and free-float the barrel. I may have a quick-detach sling stud put in the forend for using a sling for sitting and prone firing. I haven't decided about that.

In summary, I think I can say the Winchester Customer Service department did a nice job getting this rifle into shape. Customer Service seems to have gunsmiths who care about what the gun looks like or at least know how it should look, unlike the Winchester gun factory, where the assemblers who put together left-handed 375's do not know and could not care less. If you are having a problem with a brand new Winchester, I'd recommend sending it to Customer Service for repair rather than asking for a replacement.

If Rifle 3 is a shooter, I'll get a couple rolls of film and take pictures. You all should see the before and afters (well, Rifle 1 and Rifle 3 comparison anyway. Rifle 2 never came home with me). Particularly around the loading/ejection port. I need to check the serial numbers to see if they even sent me back the same gun.

H. C.

[ 07-23-2002, 15:45: Message edited by: HenryC470 ]

H.C.

I had a slight problem with the follower sticking, so I took it to a buffing wheel with jeweler's rouge, and polished the front edge.

Didn't help.

Then I looked a little closer and found that it was the WIDTH of the follower that was causing the problem. So I buffed the sides, and now it's slicker than snail snot.

Rick.

So what does this all mean, are winchesters good or bad ?? I wish to get a .375 either in a cz or a m70 stainless and from all reports the winchesters are not up to it at the minute. I sthis assumption correct ??

PC I'm on my second M70 safari express, the first one was sobadly chambered you could not chamber a once fired cartridge. The sights and and tapped holes in the receiver were so badly out of line Icould not get a leupold scope whithin 18" of the tatget, the front recoil lug was welded on crooked and this made the stock bare hevily on the bareel chanel. I sent it to win Australia and they sent me a new one which is fine apart from an ocasional feeding problem that seems to be disapearing with use.
I havent heard to many bad reports about the M70 stanless. Why not get a CZ550 and th money you save you could esily replace the stock and have some minor adjusments made by a good gunsmith.

Iwould have rather paid $500 more for my M70 and had a perfect working rifle out of the box.

Regards Guesty

Thanks gents,

I have a cz 550 in .416 Rigby which I am happy with. I thought I would like to try an M70 to see what all the fuss is about.

So the stainless M70's have been alright have they?? One thing I like about the cz's is the fact they hold 5 .375 rounds. If I get a cz 550 I will put the scope (Vari X11 2-7x) from my .416 on that and a 2.5 compact leupold on my .416.

Thanks for the tip on the browning but I am sought of hung up on either an m-70 or a cz. The only other I would consider were these two not available would be the Sako stainless synthetic .375 H&H which does not receieve much comment on this website, is that beacuse it is not a good rifle ??

A second nod for the Browning Stainless Stalker in .375.

Can anyone comment on the Sako stainless synthetic .375 H&H?

I own a LH Browning Stainless Stalker in 375HH with out the boss. I like the rifle because it is light weight and accuracy. Recoil is not bad at all. The 60 deg bolt throw makes for fast follow up shots.

I am looking at building a 416 Remington Mag out of a LH model 70 mag action instead of the Safari express. I think that it will make for a slightly lighter rifle. Does any one know of a disadvantage of using this action as opposed to the heavier Safari? I am not concernred about more recoil due to lighter weight. My Browning is open sighted and weighs 7 pounds. I shoot it all the time with no problems. I expect the 416 to weigh at least one pound more.

[ 08-02-2002, 04:13: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

Damn, Henry! You must have some bad karma. I have five LH M-70s, and all of them are very well made.

They must have had a change in management at the plant since my guns were made.

George

Well, I've finally had #3 out to the range to shoot it. I managed to do a little barrel break in, chronograph some handloads (no pressure signs or excesive velocity w/ 300 gr softpoints in front of 78.0 gr IMR 4350), and do a recoil comparison I've been meaning to do.

I knew the 375 would recoil harder than my 30-06 does, but I wasn't sure about my 870 with 3" 1 oz. slug shells. The shotgun kicks harder. At least, I perceived more pain from the shotgun than I did from the rifle (shooting 300 grain bullets at 2560 f.p.s.). With the rifle, there was a definite kick, but the shotgun left my shoulder feeling puffy. Neither one is intolerable, and there is no residual swelling of bruising the day after. With the rifle, I noticed that my stance left something to be desired, since I was having to put my front foot back on the ground between shots. That doesn't happen with my shotgun, even though the shotgun hurts more. Oh well, something to work on.

The front sight is bent along its length, being convex on the right and concave on the left, and this makes aiming at faraway targets difficult. I did manage to get the gun reasonably zeroed. That zeroing work is out the door once I decide what I'm going to replace what's in the front ramp's dovetail with, but shootig practice is shooting practice.

The trigger is breaking in, but if anything getting a little heavier (5 lb. last time I measured).

One thing that I'm not especially happy about is that case mouths are coming out all crushed. I'm shooting this thing standing in the grass, and the cases are landing 10-15 feet away, and the case mouths are crushed enough that what was the outside edge is pushed al the way in to the center of the case mouth. I doubt this happens when they hit the ground, because I wouldn't expect this degree of crushing if I threw the cases 50-100 feet and had them land in gravel. Is there something maybe wrong with way this rifle is ejecting? Is it an easy fix?

I am thinking of having a Millet or Pachmayr quick detach sling attachment stud put in the forend to facilitate firing from sling supported positions, and of course the trigger lightened to 3 lb. and a bedding job.

Overall, I would not have hestitated buying this rifle off the shelf, and I would not have been overly disappointed with the defects I have seen so far.

My advice if Winchester sells you a bum rifle: ask Product Service to fix it for you. Do not let the factory ship you a different rifle. What I have seen coming from the factory and what I have heard talking to Product Service people tells me the people who assemble these rifles at teh factory don't care in the least about turning out a quality product. At least at Product Service, your problems will be corrected by a gunsmith.

H. C.

[ 08-12-2002, 05:40: Message edited by: HenryC470 ]

H.C.

The case mouths are being crushed because the cases are contacting the rear of the receiver. I found that if I cycle the action quickly the case mouths are dented, slowly and everything is fine. I think if you look at the back of the receiver you will find markings from the brass striking it.

Jesse

I think that shortening the ejector slightly might solve the problem, but I would ask a qualified gunsmith.

Jesse

For an out of the box gun, stay away from both Browning and Winchester. I would opt for the cz.

500,

I reckon your right. I reckon in both cases a M70 stainless synthetic .375 & a cz .375 need a stock change so you might as well get the one thats a little cheaper to begin with. I will be purchasing a .375 when my cash reserves are replenished and I am swinging between the M70 & CZ, but the cz is cheaper and there are reasons for me to choose it so I am swinging that way a little again. And I think in .375 the factory hogs back might get me buy for a little. I am also thinking that the 2-7x33 Vari X11 in cz mounts can be moved straight onto the .375 and my .416 rigby will get a 2.5x compact in warne fixed mounts to match my .585. The cz's all shoot to 500.

PC,

i bought two sako synthetic stainless's in 375 from a dealer who was going out of business. i shot one and then sold it to a friend, and the other is currently on consignment at Mombasa Trading Co. in TX (along with a new CZ-550, also in 375, and a new classic M70 in .458win that i bought from the same guy-- gotta pay for that pre-64 M70 i want!) they were nice guns and the one i shot was very accurate-- first time out (with factory loads) my cousin, who's a benchrester, tagged along and he was very impressed. we shot many 3rd groups around 1" at 100yds.

i got rid of 'em cause i prefer wood stocks and CRF-- and they just seemed too lightweight. never weighed either one, but i know they were on the light side, and in a 375-class gun, 9 or 10 lbs is just fine by me for what i use it for. also, the forend was very narrow and i prefer it to be thicker and more hand-filling.

but all in all they had excellent attention to detail and were well made. i did like the rubber inserts in the stock. very positive gripping surface.

cheers,
patrick

[ 10-19-2002, 13:22: Message edited by: ppk1911 ]