The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Real life advantage for controlled feed rifle?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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cutting a mauser extractor so that you can drop a loaded round directly into the chamber is a poor practice IMO for a number of reasons not to mention it weakens the extractor, and its just as fast to push one down in the magazine, you have to close the bolt anyway so why fix a non existent problem...Ive seen more fumbles from folks trying to drop a round in an open bolt hole (chamber) than any other fungu.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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RIP and others, any comments on the old New Haven Winchester CRPF bolt:  | |||
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Minuses: No BBSSCEx (Big Beautiful Spring Steel Claw Extractor) and no TUTEx (True Undercut Tongue Extractor) for use in the feeding and extraction phases. This is much like Sako 75 feeding and extraction. Pluses: The MFCEjBS (Massive Fixed Controlled Ejector Bolt Stop) is excellent. No TPUEj (Tiny Plunger Uncontrolled Ejector) to clutter the bolt face. (I am refining my acronyms here for clarity: Preveious BBC is now BBSSCEx. Previuos TUT is now TUTEx. Previous MF is now MFCEjBS. Previuos TP is now TPUEj, All as defined above.) Of the five phases of operation, LFFEE (Load, Feed, Fire, Extract, Eject), we are concerned only with these three functionalities: FEE (Feeding, Extraction, Ejection) Feeding: Semi-controlled Round Feed plus Push Feed (SRF+PF) Extraction: Uncontrolled Round Extraction (UREx) Ejection: Controlled Round Ejection (CREj) To summarize, the old New Haven Winchester CRPF bolt action may be described as: 1. SRF+PF 2. UREx 3. CREj  Rip ... | |||
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I kept this article from G&A by Ross S. called A Professional's Rifle. Not all the info in it stands up, but what it really is, is a rundown on what your bolt rifle has to do to qualify. One of the drills is slow feeding, and fast feeding. According to him either is a common problem, not an attribute of either action type, and if your rifle has either problem it needs work. Interestingly, his favourite .416 is a push feed Rem, just because it was great. But I don't get that, and it almost seemed like malpractice as a pro. | |||
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This!! This is exactly the scenario that occurs to me, out of position shooting. Of course this is a far more exciting example, but any stumble that puts you on your ass, or even rolling to a more efficient position to work on a hiccup, could put you in a position where the rifle doesn't work as well without CF. | |||
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I agree with those who have asked when does push feed ever work better? I can't see a scenario, other than in pseudo-sniping, were a target rifle of sorts, may be preferred. Even there, there are some very accurate guns set up on Mauser actions, and with CNC a lot of different choices we didn't used to have when the tube actions were so much easier to set up in a lathe for tuing. On the flip side has there ever been a battle rifle of note, in a bolt, that was not CF? | |||
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Ron, I hope there is more refining coming down...we will certainly need an auto-bot to translate this new gun parlance.   What is "clarity" if not a simple concept for those not initiated yet? You are one off and a cut above the rest of us mere mortals! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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The only time I have had a bolt action rifle fail was with a M700 Remington, that failed in the same manner as D'arcy Echols wrote previously, except mine did not tear off the rim. Since then I have hunted in Saskatchewan's severe winter weather with Mausers, Rugers, and Sakos with no further problems. Remington are junk, failure to fire or extract is only one of a long list of problems. It is no surprise that the company is bankrupt. | |||
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There it is. That, and quotes from Phil and D'Arcy pretty much covers it. and I'll add the 700 was/is the biggest scam perpetrated on an ignorant public since the Yugo... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Many times i saw ,push feeds failures ,most ofthem after firing and the case is stucked inside the chamber ,i never saw it during my hunts because 90 percent of the clients use cf ,doubles or one of my cf rifles . I teach practical shooting in my farm and gun club and believe me i saw many pf failures ,last time a tikka and a howa but i saw it virtually in any pf .We organize sra -shooting matches that to put it simple its practica shooting with rifle there i saw many failures too. Please read RIFA RIFA proficiency examination by my good friend th late Don Heath . Regards Juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Caylen Wojcik even use cfs in his long range SAD . Caylen ex usmc recon sniper is one ofthe best rifle instructores in america currently at www.magpullcore.com staff www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Juan, what you've seen on Caylen rig is the Mausingfield action, which is a nice design no questions asked. Good stuff for sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Bottom line? Anybody that would argue with Paul Mauser would have to be a candidate for a white jacket, and they are many!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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I've trained with Caylen Wojcik a couple times and agree--he is the best precision/hunting rifle instructor I've met, and I've trained with quite a few. He is not with Magpul any longer. Caylen is the training director for Gunwerks in Wyoming now: https://www.gunwerks.com/store/training He also teaches independently through his firm Kalinski Consulting: http://kalinski.flywheelsites.com/
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Ross Siegfried is a known gun-rag blowhard who'll say one thing in an article in a particular magazine, and then contradict himself in another magazine by stating exactly the opposite on the same topic.  His chief objective appears to be to get published as much as possible without necessarily satisfying the corresponding need to make consistent sense on a particular topic.  All The Best ... | |||
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I have seen this happen many times with push feed rifles. A friend of mine is a Model 700 guy. He does great with them. He is fond of saying , A model 700 extractor will pull the rim off a case , it's so strong ! Unfortunately, what he doesn't understand is that any rotating extractor doesn't ( Pull the Rim Off The Case) rather it slices thru the brass rim to the point it is weak enough that the small amount of brass remaining attached to the back of the case tears off! Then there is the already mention brass shavings getting into all kinds of places it shouldn't and messing up the works. Another problem with push feed bolt faces is they love to collect moisture, , like a funnel. Those Great 3 rings of Steel ;-). I've seen the bolt faces packed so tight with fine wind blown snow dust from a snow machine ride when caribou hunting . That the bolt had to be pulled from the receiver and a knife point had to be used to chip the ice out . No easy task getting the bolt out of a M700 with their tiny little lever inside the trigger guard. And of course while all this is going on the caribou decide to get the he'll out a Dodge! I've only had a few push feed rifles that didn't chamber reliably . 1 a 308 in a 722. The hands down WORST FEEDING RIFLE I EVER HAD THE SORRY MISFORTUNE TO OWN !!!!! Was a M700 in 223 !! There ain't enough cuss words in the American language to articulate trying to get a round in the chamber of that rifle. 2, 788 Rems in 223 I had fed 100% or close to it . The 527 CZ that I had fed 100% . The Savage Edge in 223 I had fed absolutely 100% . That and the fact it was the single most accurate rifle I've ever seen let alone owned and shot. And it only cost $269.00 . But that's a different subject. I still sent that rifle down the road. Rotating extractors and plunger ejectors fail, they fail repeatedly and quite miserably. I know that most people live and hunt in much more moderate climates and situations than the bush Alaskans do. If you've ever seen a Super Cub with a Koplin Gun Boot lashed to a wing strut . You kinda know what your rifle will have to endure, just to get to where the hunting Starts. And that's nice compared to being hung on the towing post of my heavy welded Aluminum work boats . And pounding 50 miles of salt water to go to work , fish, or hunt. In November thru February. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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This brings up the whole, push feed positive feed back comments. Prone or bench shooters that don't want to change their position to chamber a fresh round. And the reason for the 60- 70 ° bolt lift of many target actions. Guys just want to swat the bolt closed. Something of a slothful bolt manipulation. Imho the reason Ted invented the Nucleus action. Which is CRF , but has a rotating extractor . It is a VERY Robust extractor tho . It can not but pulled off the bolt , broke or become dislodged. And the Nucleus action has a fixed ejector. Watching American Rifle Co. You tube vids is quite an education ! And very entertaining ! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I have both and have never had an issue with either type. | |||
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Zastava Arms, which manufactures the left-handed M70 (true mirror action of the commercial FN M98 H-ring action union which the M70 action is based), is located in Serbia. No need for USA importer/exporter involvement. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Huh? All The Best ... | |||
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Reading comprehension -- try it sometime HeymSR20 is located in Scotland Zastava is in Serbia Hence No need to involve a US importer DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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In a war, thank you very much, I take a supposed push feed Lee Enfield over a CRF Mauser '98 any day. And so would most here, with any sense in them, too. There's more to a good rifle than CRF or push feed in the medium calibres. Mauser's bolt is 90 degree, over long and the bolt root obscures the firers view of the target. Lee's bolt is 60 degree, shorter and the bolt root doesn't obscure the firer's view of the target. In 1945 an American politician, seeking to belittle him, once asked British Prime Minister Clement Attlee if he'd ever hunted or shot dangerous game. "Yes," replied Attlee, "Germans. And you?" | |||
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I had a Browning BLR81 the extraktor frose open twice in 8y of use in wintertime.It didnt destroy a hunt it was just a small inconvenience. Solution degreasing never using any lubricant who can jam up the action. I sold it and bought a Tikka T3 instead it has not controled feed but it works perfect in any conditions easyer to clean. | |||
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"There's more to a good rifle than CRF or push feed in the medium calibres." Military automatic rifles are push feed they never complain about it. Yes i have had failure to reload with HK G3, FNC then i dipped them in snow  | |||
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Ross S is not a blow hard, he is a very professional gun nut, and one of the best hunters I know of...He was a PH in Africa for 11 years and managed his elk ranch for years. He has a gun background second to none. He is in fact a super nice person..If he contradicted himself it was because he changed his mind and admitted it. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The merits and reason for the CRF is largely historical and hails from a era of transition from unreliable ammunition , rifles and methods of warfare that hopefully we will never ever see again. The success of Mauser's then revolutionary design was not lost on hunters who transitioned at the same time that guns were put to the test on the battlefields of Europe. The Mauser 98 system and it was a system of features was revolutionary given what available before. Front locking vs rear locking on the bolt, Positive controlled extraction of a damaged case which was often the result of a case rupture and protection via gas diversion for the shooter in the event of a rupture. It was not so much a controlled feed that was at issue it was controlled extraction ! The transition from BP to nitro was a stormy affair and pressure was as it still is a difficult force to master and control. The issue of "tropical loads" and ammunition very much part of the pressure control issue. Unreliable ammo and unreliable guns were very much part of a era gone by. Today much if not the majority of failure issues are gone ! We simply do not see catastrophic case failures on factory ammo and thus what was very much part of the transition era of why the old controlled feed and extraction was essential no longer exists..... yes like many before deem this essential to the DG hunting rifle ( as I do) it is mostly a mindset issue . I will wager a bet that most DG rifles built today will at most see use in a single safari done under watchful eye of hopefully a competent shooter as guide ( this is a topic on its own  ) for the most they will never ever be used for what they were built for and most will at most not see a 100 odd rounds fired in a lifetime ! | |||
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Is he still writing? Always enjoyed his articles, but I don't get the Double Gun Journal anymore. Dave | |||
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Ross has many talents and did obtain a PH license in Zambia and according to what he wrote, worked part time for three or four seasons. But there are a fair number of folks who actually have had dealings with Ross and who have differing feelings about the matter. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I have not seen anything current from Ross for a long time. Is he even still writing? ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Real life advantage for controlled feed rifle?
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