These are pics of a .475 500gr. Woodleigh WeldCore that I used on a buff in Tanzania this past November.

This bullet was launched at 2380fps from my Winchester Model 70 .470 Capstick.

The bullet struck the spine, flattened out, and stopped cold. The buff was rolled over, but it got back up immediately.

Would you consider this a bullet failure?

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

[This message has been edited by GeorgeS (edited 01-15-2002).]

George,

Would that bullet be designed with 2100 f/s in mind?

There does seem to be a very big difference between 2000 and 2400 for expansion.

Maybe you can send it back to Geoff McDonald and he will send you a another bullet

Mike

Mike,

I scoured Woodleigh's web site, and cannot find any reference to velocity ratings for their bullets.

Since you are all-knowing , perhaps you could post either the URL or scan a copy of Woodleigh's brochure stating the velocities their bullets are rated at.

Or do you just make statements like that up?

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

George,

I just imagined that
they would have been designed
for the double rifle velocities,
which I guess are around 2100 f/s

Advertisements Woodleigh has
recently run in Australian
gun magazines for 30 caliber bullets
gives suggested min and max impact velocities.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 01-15-2002).]

The bullet was designed to regulate in a 470 at 2100 FPS...Naturally it will blow up if stressed at that speed and on the spine...Woodleigh makes great bullets, but he isn't a miracle worker...

I blew a Woodleigh 404 inside out at 2653 FPS, but at 2200 that bullet worked perfectly.

Neither my case or yours was bullet failure, it was human error, duh!

Next time shoot a solid.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Geroge & Ray - As I posted on the other thread regarding George's pictures, Woodleigh�s are velocity specific. With many new .458 cartridges pushing 2300fps and higher, maybe it's time for a new WeldCore jacket like the new .416 WeldCore.

Hey Ray, how much time do you have on your hands???

Thanks, gents. I was entirely unaware that Woodleighs were velocity-rated like conventional bullets. Is this stated anywhere in writing?

Besides, who knew a bonded core bullet would blow apart like that?

George
P.S. Retained weight was 182.0grs., or 36.4% of the original 500grs.

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

From George's post

Is this stated anywhere in writing?

Yes, in a round about way.

Geoff McDonald is well known for making bullets for the Nitro calibers.

I think he would not have to make much allowance for 470 Capstick users.

If you have any experience testing bullets you would know that there is a threshold that exists in the 2000 to 2500 area.

A simple test of bullet swapping between 22 magnum and 22 Hornet will reveal that. As will shooting pigs with 500 Hornadies from a 458 and a 460 Wby with 115 grains of IMR 4350 which does right on 2500 f/s.

At least your

Is this stated anywhere in writing?

is consistent with your views that gun writers should disclose their "interests"

And George, it was your smart arse remarks to me on my reply to you which caused me to post this. Unfortunately, others have come in with the same reply on both your threads.

Ask them if they just make up these statements.

I am not responsible for you being a person that believes rules and disclosure will fix things.

Mike

Just for further amplification, even solids have velocity ratings. We generally cannot attain the velocity necessary to blow them to bits but there is a velocity (and its not 8000 fps) at which they will flatten or fracture.

The bonded core bullets are tougher because they hang together and are made of more ductile metals than typically used for making a "tough" bullet. That is to say, a hard lead alloy will resist expansion, but will also shatter in most cases rather than expand in a ductile manner. Some thing goes for hard copper alloy jacket materials. Most bonded core bullets use pure copper and pure lead.

Mike,
Spare me. Your posts are among the most contentious and abrasive on this, or any other forum, and you can't take a bit of sarcasm?

Woodleigh makes bullets for all sorts of cartridges designed for bolt-action
rifles, e.g., (.505 Gibbs, .500 Jeffery, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby, on down to .270 Win.).

Since your posts have never been of any help to me, do me a favor and ignore my posts, and I'll ignore yours.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

I think the Woodleigh .475 bullets were designed for the 470 nitro (2150 fps) not the capstick. I shot a kudu with a woodleigh .475 500 grain soft. It smashed a shoulder then quartered 4 feet through the animal before stopping. When I get my scanner up I will post a pic.

To answer George's question, I do not think the photos show a bullet failure. Instead, I think the photos show that the wrong bullet was chosen. Only having shot one buffalo, I will take SOLIDS only next time (GS FN solids).

Forgot to say that the .475 bullet I shot was from a capstick at 2350 fps.

I also shot a GS custom FN solid 500 gr .475 into a recently expired elephant. It broke the should and went 6-7 feet to lodge near the rear. I was impressed.

In Australia most of the Woodleigh's have the cartridge they were designed for on the bottom of the box.
I see on the web site that the .474" 500grn was made for the 470 Nitro.
Of note he has made a MK11 416 bullet to take higher velocity, which would indicate that his bullets don't cover all vel ranges.

I would assume (but I maybe wrong) that he would like to see the pics of the failure(and yes I would call it a failure) with details of vel. The contact email on the site is
mailto:zedfield@swanhill.net.au
Things can only be improved if those that made them, are aware they need improving.

George,

Your post was not an
attempt at sarcasm.

Well, at least I hope for you sake it
was not an attempt.

You are just burnt off
because others came on
with the same suggestion
as I made.

You fucked up on your
bullet due to the "disclosure"
that Woodleigh uses not being
clear to you.

I have not seen Woodleighs in 475
but I imagine they are like others
in that the "caliber" is on the box.

I have 510 535 grainers here
and the box has 500 Jeffrey on it.

Face it George.

You love rules and therefore
someone like me is difficult for you.

If someone like you had their
way bullet makers would have to
enclose an entire instruction manual
with each box. Of course that would
not add to the cost of bullets

What about as moderator on HA Africa
when you locked up a thread on 45/70s
for the "good" of everyone.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 01-16-2002).]

Mike,
Your puerile remarks notwithstanding, I already admitted not knowing Woodleighs were velocity-rated. I can accept the premise that I used the wrong bullet in my .470.

I never proposed "Rules", but I do demand the disclosure of enough information to make an informed decision.

No bullet maker can name all the cartridges their bullet will work in on the box (and I seriously doubt they would include wildcats). FYI, Speer puts a little blurb on their .224 50gr. TNTs advising against using them above 3600fps.

Now, just stay out of the threads I start, ESPECIALLY on the African Hunting forum where you obviously have nothing to contribute.

George
P.S. As for locking a .45-70 thread on HA, that thread was a duplicate of two others and was also going nowhere. On HA, the rules are set by the owner, and as a moderator, I am obligated to enforce them.

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

George,

From one of your posts above:

Since your posts have
never been of any help to me,
do me a favor and ignore my posts,
and I'll ignore yours.

Mike

Yet another unhelpful post.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

George,
That looks like bullet failure plain and simple. I was going to try some Woodleigh softs for my 416 Rigby before going to Tanzania. I handloaded to normal pressures and was shooting the Woodleighs and also Barnes with a caliche bank as a back stop. I never recovered the Barnes but the Woodleighs just blew apart. That is my only expereince with these but I changed bullets before I went over.
I like a stronger bullet like the Barnes or Trophy Bonded. The retained weight on my "failed" Woodleighs were about 115 grains.
I'm certainly no expert on bullet performance but the Woodleighs softs scare me.
Regards,
Terry

Terry
Woodleigh now makes a 416 with a thicker jacket called a MKII. Is featured on his home page.
http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/

Terry,
The bullet failed, but apparently its performance window is 300fps slower.

Some fellow was asking about your Kahles. Did he get a hold of you?

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

416SW,
Thanks for posting the site.

George,
I sold the Kahles...thanks.

George,
Can I ask what part of the spine was the buff was hit(eg neck ,above chest? etc.)
Also what happened after it rolled and got up?

regards,
karl.

Karl,
The soft hit above the chest, a bit behind the lungs.
Once the buff got back up, I put three .475 500gr. Woodleigh solids into him and finished the episode.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

A few observations on this thread.
Obviously, the bullet failed. Obviously, George was unaware of all the threads here or at HA these past few years relating the bad experiences others have had with these bullets when used above 2100fps. IMO, Woodleighs are garbage, fit for nothing but use in a double rifle. Their softs are a poor excuse for a bonded bullet and their solids no better. In a double rifle you're stuck with them generally, but in a bolt rifle there are multitudes of better choices.
George, why didn't you use a Swift in that rifle, you seem to love them in other calibers?

John,
The main problem was lead time. I got the rifle just a few months before my safari, and it came with some A-Square-loaded Monolithic Solids (used for proving and practice), and a fair amount of Woodleigh softs and solids as loaded by Superior Ammunition.

I handloaded most of my practice ammo, but didn't feel that I had enough time to work up a load with Swifts. I should have done a few things differently, but I am somewhat wiser for the experience.

The Swifts are now on the way, and I'm going to try the Barnes XLCs as well. By the time my next safari comes around in a year or so, I'll be ready with a proper soft for my .470 Capstick!

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

JohnS,

Since Woodleighs are so bad. Can you direct me to some good .510" hunting bullets besides the Barnes X, which I cannot get to to shoot. I also do not want to shoot or modify surp military 647gr bullets.

Thanks,
Todd E

Todd,
GS Custom Bullets are highly regarded by some members of this forum, and they make some .510 bullets.

Check out http://gscustom.co.za/

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

Todd-
You might also try the Barnes Monolithic solids and/or Hawk bullets with their heaviest jacket thickness.

Thanks gentlemen. I checked out the Hawks and their heaviest jacket is the same thickness as a Woodleigh. So I question if the Hawks will perform any better than the Woodleigh. If the Hawks aren't any better performers terminally at least the are more cost effective and American made. I am not particularily fond of the monolithics either because they are so loooong.

JohnS,

Have you ever had a Woodleigh solid fail? If so would you explain what happened?

Todd E

Todd-
Several years ago I was hunting in Tanzania and my PH had a 500 double. On one particular buffalo he followed up my shot as the buffalo was turning to go. When we recovered the buffalo I had the trackers dig out his bullets, both Woodleigh solids. Both were bent into a J shaped form, and neither one (obviously) penetrated completely. Later in the hunt I wanted to use the rifle myself because it was my chance to use a double rifle and i wasn't going to pass it up! I shot a buffalo broadside, through the lungs with a soft and then gave him the solid as he turned to run away. The soft did it's job and we found the bull about 100yds from where I shot him. However, once again the solid didn't exit.
I imagine I should have been more clear about their performance limits in my original post. Their soft points do work decently well at 2100fps MV or below, but at that velocity about anything should! I just didn't see the results I want from their solids, and these were from a double rifle.
If you are shooting a 500 A-Square or similar bolt gun I would choose a bullet made to stand up to 2300-2400fps MVs. I would put up with the length of the Barnes mono solids or get some of the GS solids and just forget the softs. Until there is a lot more interest in 50cal hunting rifles you likely will never see a true "premium" soft point that is up to the capabilities of your rifle.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 01-21-2002).]

Barnes XLC of 570 grains works well in my 510 JAB/500 A-Square. I have that as well as the 570 grain FN from GSC as my picks. Of course there is also the 600 grain Barnes solid.

For my 470 Capstick I have the Barnes XLC, Swift A-Frame, and Barnes solid, all 500 grains. The GSC's are so dang hard to get through the mail! They have a 500 grain HV and FN. This would be the cat's meow in any rifle, double or bolt.

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Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear.
RAB

One Question. Can you get that damned blue coating off of the Barnes XLC? They just don't look right BLUE! I am willing to try them out if the blue does come off. I really hate load development though with these it is down right expensive.

Todd E

Todd-
When you bought that 50cal you left the "cheap" world behind, I'm afraid to say. Everything costs a lot, from cases to bullets to the amount of powder consumed!
I can't begin to tell you how that blue coating could be removed, but maybe Barnes can, or would make you a run of the bullets sans coating?

JohnS,

I know. Actually it is cheaper now than it used to be. I don't shoot the 50 too much except for just before a hunt. I usually practice with a cheaper bigbore that has the same stock that my 50 has. The cheapy is a 416 Rigby for all you aspiring 50 cal shooters.

Todd E

It is known that shooting buffalo with the best bullets, making the best shots, that buff do on occasion roll over and get back up again.
So, at what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail?
It failed to live up to it's advertising hype, but it did do what it was supposed to do, kill. Human error put the bullet beyound it's velocity window, but the buff did die as intended. ~~~Suluuq

George,

What is the twist in your 470 capstick barrel?

It is a challenge for manufacturers to make a bullet that will expand reliably on soft tissue, and yet hold together for heavy bone. All bullets have velocity windows. I've read ancillary reports that the large caliber X's start shedding their pedals at 2400-2500 fps.

Rusty,
The .475 Woodleigh soft did not really contribute to the buff's death; the .375 Swift A-Frames killed it, and the .475 Woodleigh solids broke him down.
Had I put the Woodleigh soft through the vitals instead of a peripheral area it might not have flattened like that.
As you say, the buff is dead, and no one got hurt

Paul,
My .470 Capstick barrel has a 1-18" twist (Pac-Nor barrel).

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

George,

I was thinking a fast twist may have contributed to rabid expansion, but, 1-18 is nearly a muzzleloader

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Hi George,
I just received two boxes of Woodleigh .475-500 grain bullets and each box came with a note as follows:

Woodleigh Bullets
470 Nitro .474
5oo gr. RN SN W20
SD 0.318 BC 0.411
Recommended Impact Velocity 1800-2200 fps.

Please underline Impact
I don't think you could have missed the high end of the bullets rated impact velocity by much so I would call it a bullet failure especially with the slow twist. Stick with the Swifts for a soft.

470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Hi again George,
You never mentioned what the shot distance was so I ran some numbers through Load from a Disk.
With the velocity mentioned 2380 fps and the BC of.411 if your shot was at 75 yards the impact velocity would have been 2226 fps and of the shot was at 100 yards the impact velocity would have been 2176 fps. Both very close to the recommended IMPACT velocity. Bullet failure.

470 Mbogo