Just a bit of news for the other gauge rifle fans from recent hunts for brass.

Bruce Bertram is working his way through these cases now.He has done 12 bore, starting 10 next year and up from there.
Should be okay for the pressures these things run at.
I asked if he could skip 10 and 8 and start turning out 4 bore straight away
He said depends what interest is shown or if anyone wants to distribute it for him. Too big time for me, I'll be waiting a year or two I guess.

Horneber says he will do 4, 8 bore etc. but 1000 cases minimum to 'keep prices reasonable'.

And jdj jones says a good source of crazy wildcat or gauge rifle brass is not the 20mm vulcan, since the rims are no good once fired,(from the chain guns?)

hmmm that's about it. Guess I'm stuck with a piddly 585 for a bit longer..

Karl.

[ 11-09-2003, 03:56: Message edited by: Karl ]

Karl, did he say what it did to the rims?

Glenn,
Drat I don't have a copy of the mail he sent me.I was asking him whether I could get brass for one of his 95 JDJs, and also if it carried a military headstamp(as you know the problems I had).He pretty much wasn't keen so I put it out of my head soo after.
But I remember he said the 20mm brass are not good fodder for it because the rims are bent.
And if I knew of a source of brass myself.

Then again maybe the rims are only a problem for the modern pressure stuff.

Karl

Karl

The vast majority of bore guns did not use brass cases. Unless you mike the barrel you could get into big trouble with using th wrong case.

Plus, it is Bertram.

Karl,

what action do we need to feed and fire a metallic 4-bore round and what ballistics can we expect ??

Can he skip 4 bore and go straight to 2 or 1 bore

[ 11-09-2003, 10:15: Message edited by: PC ]

Mickey the gun would be built around the brass itself.Bertram.. yeah I know, but as far as these pressures go should be okay, assuming primer pockets and all the other dramas are okay...

PC- 4 bore with good brass- I reckon 20mm cannon power is acheivable. 30,000-40,000ftlbs and a gun weighing 100lbs +
Jongmans said he can make them, and has made double 4's before also.
I'm more after getting some kind of 'carryable monster shotgun' going though.

2 bore brass!-We'll go halves in an order mate
Actually he said he can make up to 40mm cannon brass which is between 2 bore and 1 bore in calibre.

Karl.

[ 11-09-2003, 13:24: Message edited by: Karl ]

What ballistics can the human body stand and still have a portable 2-4 bore I want to be able to hunt pigs etc. with it. If Bertram can do cases Karl and Jongmans can build an action at a reasonable cost where back in buisness.

Just that building a 4- bore and then knowing that the 2 bore exists would worry me, how much weaker is the 4-bore compared to the two bore in energy levels ??

and what do 4 and 2 bore meaure oout at in normal caliber scale ie. .585" etc.

PC, I read something about it a while ago, so I will take a stab from memory. I think that 4 bore was something like 1.010 inches and 2 bore was something like 1.2 inches in diameter.

I know I cannot handle one of those guns so I will not pursue it. But I have thought about an 8 bore muzzle loader that conicals rather than round balls for black powder hunting seasons.

I just posted a note about this in another thread, then read this, so I looked up the data in COTW. Interestingly enough, they state that the 2 and 4 bores were never correctly sized when sold. Their data shows that there was no standardization on 4 bore, but actual barrels ran from 5-6 bore. The two bores sold typically measured out at an exact true 4 bore. If true, then a true four bore, if built, is a duplicate of the English 2 bore.

Hope the quality is better, but as I am persuing a 10 bore project I guess I will be in line for some of that brass next year. You guys and going all out, 2 bore, ouchie, I know my recoil tolerence stops way before the baby of a cannon. But a double rifle in 8 bore would be a wonderfully nostalgic thing. I think I could also manage to interest myself in a 4 bore for shot. Just the thing for squirrel and turkey.

Brian

Just out of curiosity-
Why don't a few guys get together and have someone with CNC machines make some cases from billet brass?

Every once in a while I see a post about people wanting some crazy big bore brass and I always wonder about this.

PC, one of the simplest actions I have seen the 4 built on was a Belguim copy of the rolling block, The Doc,in Kentuck that collects English guns has 2 of them, one is supposed to have been Stanley's 4 bore

Dave,

it's all about what is affordale because in all seriuosness if it gets up towards the cost of a searcy double then I would prefer the double but if costs can be kept reasonable I would build one for sure. Being a .585 Nyati owner the next step up in power needs to be thought through, .600 are not that much more than the .585 one can shoot up to 1000 gr bullets in the .585 using cast lead, so it's got to be a .700 or a bore rifle

Lathe turned brass as the makers here will tell you is a lot weaker but should be okay for BP pressures I have been told.

The 4 bores etc. were usually misnamed. Sam bakers 4 bore was actually his 4 ounce rifle as he called it and closer to 5 or 6 bore, since this was not a ball he was firing, but a longer conical bullet(I think )

'4 bores'are around 1" bore to make it easy.
The 2 bore going off a 'half pound lead ball' will be around 1.35" bore.

PC, the absolute maximums of weight and recoil withstood for a career of hunting, historically, were the 4 bores running at around 7000ftlbs+, 18-25lbs weight and recoil around 120-160ftlbs.

For big strong(stupid)lads doing a lot of shooting these are the limits we should juggle variables to stick to.
Of course you could go heavier or more painful but historically no one else could for long.

This puts a 4 bore with it's 2000gn slug at about 1400fps before weight or recoil leaves the above limits.

Any smaller bullet and you are practially using a round ball.

The 2 bore with a 3500gn ball blows all the limits even at only 1000fps.
That's hundreds of ftlbs recoil from a 30lb gun and the same energy as the 4 anyway.

The most fun to me would be to load overpowder wads and massive shot charges from a smoothbore one of these.

For taking out and impressing everything with big holes I reckon a 700 nitro like saeed's would be the best bet.
At 22lbs or whatever,same recoil weight as the 4 bores roughly, but beats them hands down for actually hitting things past 100 yards and 'general splatter' of medium game.

The 4 bore would be more for the romance of owning one, and the sheer visual effect of the cases.

Of course if you want to move away from 'true shoulder fired' and go along the 700BMG lines, the 4 or 2 bore for groundfired the sky is the limit. Like owning a 20mm lahti etc.

Karl.

[ 11-10-2003, 02:35: Message edited by: Karl ]

Ideally if I could afford it I would buy a Searcy .700 Nitro Double and that would be an excellent pig rifle IMHO.

I like traditional cals rather than military stuff as well so the .700 Nitro would suit me fine.

700 nitro for pigs? What kind of pigs are these?

Bloody sabre-toothed ones!
Funny thing, I see shooters time & time again sighting in their guns for that 400 yard shot and when they go bush, the first pig jumps up 30 yards out and they miss the bugger!!

I at leat like to be armed with a 45/70 or .375 H&H when pig hunting, but the more power the better. I have not had the chance to bag pigs yet with my lott, Rigby or .585 Nyati or the 9.3 for that matter. Hopefully one day.