Some people have the bad habits of commenting before reading all of a thread.

It looks like you got the problems worked out, glad to hear it...

I had the same problem with a Remington .375 H & H. I, too tried everything suggested, finally my wife said quit wasting money and get a different rifle. That piece of junk now sits in the corner of my gun room and I picked up a CZ 550, .375 and took it to RSA. No glass bedding or other tinkering, just sighted it in and took off. No problems. Prior to leaving all the different loads I tried in the Remington shot under an inch with the CZ. Take my advice and get a different rifle. All the rifle manufacturers make great rifles, but every now and then, a lemon gets sent through and it appears my friend, you and I were a the receiving end this time from two great companys.

So are you saying that this isn't "fixed?"





Since it was bedded, I have shot 8 groups and 7 of them were under 1". 5 at or under 3/4" The two pictured are about 5/8" and 1/2".

I have a Model 70 Safari that I purchased a few years ago and since that time, I have messed with it off and on, never really too pleased with its performance.

About 1 1/2 months ago, while at a RMEF banquet, my wife purchased a safari for me in South Africa. I am very excited about the trip, but my increased efforts with the 375, have really gotten me down.

I have shot several different loads out of it, with 300 gr. Sierras, 260 Nosler Ballistic Tips, 235 Speers, and a few 270 Hornady Spire Points. Also tried 3031, 4895, 4064, 4320, 4350, 4831 (all IMR), RL15, H380, and Varget. All produce the same results...patterns. Groups at 100 yards are almost always 2 1/2"-4". I get the occasional good group, but I think that is a statistical result, not a good load, as more groups with the same load result in the above mentioned "patterns." One group, everything stings horizontally, the next group it strings vertically, and the next group, it throws 'em all over the paper with no stringing.

I have tried 4 different scopes, two different mount systems, free floating the barrel, neck sizing brass, full length sizing brass, magnum primers, regular primers, all to no avail.

I have read a time or two (particularly allen day) that I should not send it back to Winchester and that I should send it to Mark Penrod. I talked to Mark about it and to get it to shoot correctly may cost me about $1100. That's quite a bit more than I paid for the rifle... and frankly, I don't have the money to go to that extreme. This guess/estimate is based upon what he quoted of $675 for rebarrel, but that didn't include blueing or sights, plus $190 for bedding. So that $1100 above is a guess on my part, based upon pricing Mark gave me...and proabably even a bit low.

What are my options here? I don't have a lot of money I can pour into this rifle, and am running out of time. I know you may be thinking that if I can afford to go to Africa, I can afford to do whatever needs to be done to get the rifle to group better, but this trip came up on me out of the blue and I had no plans of going in the near future, therefore, I hadn't been planning on it...so the funds are a bit tight. I want to get it fixed, but don't know the best way to go about it.

I think that Winchester may be able to at least get me started... hell, it can't be aby worse than it is now!

Can a proper bedding job take a rifle that consistantly groups 2 1/2" to 4" and make it less than 1 1/2"?

Should I dump the rifle and get something else? I'd rather not as it was a "present" from my wife... A present in that I said I wanted it and she handed me the checkbook and said "You're bithday is coming up."

Any opinions?

Thanks for the help!

Take it back where you bought it and see what they can do. If you have had it that long you may bo out of luck though.

First Winchester/Remington/Ruger, believe it or not, do not know how to *fix* guns, they only know how to make them... and poor ones at that. Not only will sending your rifle to Winchester take a long time, but it�s likely to come back in the same condition or worse, with new problems. If you know how to bed a rifle I would start there. If this doesn�t help then sending the rifle to someone who can "square it up/blueprint" it is the second most inexpensive option. Its more likely than not that your rifle isn�t strait to begin with, in more ways then one. The third option is to rebarrel/chamber and set it strait, which will cost more, and if you already tried too blueprint with the original barrel and failed your costs will really add up. Trying to fix the problem with handloading is not only a waist of time but doesn�t ever fix the rifle. Guns that are strait and accurate to begin with, shoot even crapy handloads well, and good handloads very well. I no longer buy factory rifles, I now own a third of the guns I use to because of the cost of new custom/semi custom rifles, and I am happier because I own what�s more ideal to me.

A .375H&H shooting 2.5MOA is adequate for most African hunting, but I gather that you find that unsatisfactory.

First, have you had someone else shoot the gun? It is possible that you are flinching.

Second, start from the beginning. Check the bedding (such as it is), crown, barrel-to-stock contact, look for cracks in the stock (remove barreled action and check the tang and inletting), clean your bore, adjust your trigger to about 4lbs., remove and re-install your mounts (degrease the top of the receiver, the bases, and screws first), tight, but not 'gorilla-tight'.
If everything looks good, re-install the barreled action in the stock and tighten down the screws.

Third, get a Leupold scope, preferably in 2.5x-8x. There are other scopes out there, but you can generally trust a Leupold to hold together.

After firing four or five rounds, tighten all the scope mount and action screws again.

Fourth, pick a hunting bullet, and then develop a load for it. Unless you are going to hunt smaller plains game, I don't like any of your bullet choices. Try the Nosler Partitions at a minimum; my preference is the Swift A-Frame, but the Barnes 'X', NorthForks, and Trophy Bondeds, are also highly regarded by a lot of our forum Members.

If the gun still does not shoot well, you could try to fix it by throwing money at it (I would not re-barrel unless there is something seriously wrong with it as it came from USRAC, in which case, let USRAC take care of it.

Personally, I'd sell it and get another, or switch to another manufacturer's product.

George

I have the same problem with my .375 H&H Safari Express � see my post about removing the barrel mounted lug. Thought about the whole re-barrel, square and true the action route but figured I would just give it a chance with new bedding and total free floating. Will let you know how it turns out.

One option you might look into is Hill Country Rifles. www.hillcountryrifles.com

For $350 they offer an accurizing service and guarantee your factory rifle to shoot sub-moa. I believe it might be 1 �� for �magnums� or something over a certain bore size but you could call and ask. They glass and pillar bed the action, re-crown the barrel, do a trigger job, lap the scope rings and according to the lady I spoke to �do whatever else is needed to get it shooting right.� If they can�t get it shooting right they only charge $200 for the pillar bedding. JJHack sent his factory stainless Model 70 .375 to them, IIRC, and was pleased with the results.

Looking at the cost of their services - $200 to pillar and glass bed an action? $100 to mount a Decelerator pad and $10 more if they cut the stock? Seems a bit overpriced for basic gunsmithing. But for a blanket cost of $350 they �guarantee� the accuracy�

I figure my local smith is competent to do those same things so am going to give him a try first. Glass and pillar bed, trigger job, re-crown if necessary, totally free float the barrel and see how that works. If it still shoots patterns then it might be time to rebarrel � but if it works then, hey, I have an accurate rifle (1 �� is fine with me for a .375) and have saved several hundred dollars.

You have several options to investigate before spending big money on a fix. Personally, I would be surprised if this was anything major- all the factory .375's I've shot have shot just fine with a little work and handloading.

This is the order I would investigate your problems-
1.- Bed the action area and the barrel all the way to the tip.
2.- Check your scope mounts to be absolutely sure they are tight, then replace the scope with one you know to be good.
3.- Check the tightness of the 2 action screws, the front and rear screws, then tighten the middle magazine screw just snug and no more. This can easily be putting a bind on the action is the screws are tightened improperly- especially if the action isn't fitting the stock properly.
4. Check your handloads and start with a known quality load. My own .375 known quality loads that always seem to shoot in all the .375's I've known consists of H4831, CCI250 primers, and Hornady 270 Spire points. Check seating depths, I like about .005" from the lands in most of my handloads.

If this doesn't fix the problem,and you have time, send the rifle to PacNor and have them spin a barrel and true the action. It should run about $420 or so for the barrel and mounting, plus blueing if it is a CM barrel.

Hope this helps a bit. Let us know how it comes out and congrats on your trip to Africa and a very generous wife!
If all else fails, a 375 really isn't necessary in Africa unless you are going after Dangerous game. For plains game a 300 Mag, 338, or something along that line will do nicely.- Sheister

Trapdoor,

Another approach is to look up the closest Wincester repair facility and talk to them. They may be interested enough to take a look at it for you.

I was talking to such a smith last week and he mentioned things that affect accuracy and function on M70's that I had not even thought of. All of the work could well be free under warrantee.

One thing that has always bothered me about my Model 70 .375 is the long throat. Don�t have my notes with me but the magazine limits OAL to 3.60 inches and that leaves most bullets a good .4-.5 inches away from the rifling. I know a rifle so chambered can still shoot okay �Weatherby�s have a long freebore and most shoot pretty straight � but as a finicky handloader it still irks me.

Thanks for the suggestions!



A few things to clarify a bit more...apoligies for not including in original post!



The four scopes that have been on the rifle: one old Weaver K3, a Leupold Vari-X IIc 1-4, Vari-X IIc 2-7, and a VX1 2-7.



I realize bullets so far used are not great game bullet, but I am trying to get something established before I go to the good bullets. I have Partitions already and will also try more premiums, and fully intend to hunt with the premiums.



I know that a 375 isn't required for plains game, but to me, nothing says Africa like a .375H&H!! It's just what I want to use.



I floated the barrel channel myself and can slip a business card from forend tip to barrel mounted recoil lug, then from barrel mounted recoil lug to front of action.



The tang inletting isn't what I would call good. In fact, the action bears on the tang itself. I have tried shimming up the rear of the action with shim stock, to attempt to take some of the pressure off the actual tang, but this hasn't helped either.



I have tried shooting with a squeaky clean bore and with a very dirty bore... again, no difference.



I have adjusted the trigger way down and it is NICE, but do not know what weight it is...probably in the neighborhood of 3 1/2 - 4#'s.



Have not removed and reinstalled mounts...currently using Talley's (per GeorgeS's recommendation a few months back).



There are only two action screws on my rifle, no middle magaizine screw.....only the front and rear. Both are tight, but will loosen a bit after 10-15 rounds... I then retighten them.



Currently, I do not have any friends in my immediately vicinity to shoot the rifle for me, I wish I did. Of course it is possible that I may be flinching... I wouldn't say for sure that is the problem, though...



My first thought was to have the action bedded, but am concerned that it wouldn't be able to help an accuracy delimma of 4" proportions...



Bullet seating depth has been limited to on overall length of 3.600", to fit into the magazine, as it will be a hunting rifle... otherwise I have a bolt action single shot. However, last night I did shoot a group with 300 Sierras that were just shy of the lands and again...pattern was the result.



Thanks for the congrats on the trip and the wife. She is lovely, and surprised the hell out of me... I was unaware of what she was doing at the banquet, as I was busy. I have heard more than one comment about the face I had on when I realized what had happened!

Lots of powders that are not nessesarily the best option with the expection of 4064 and RL-15. Lots of good advice here and I think your rifle is salvageable. I would start with 300gr bullets like Hornadys for example if you reload and 76gr of H-414, Fed 215 primers and Winchester brass. Like George S, I prefer A Frames, but try the Hornadys first. Alos, have you tried factory ammo? I'd try a box of factory and see what happens. jorge

Must agree with GeorgeS on every item except ORDER of bullets to try, but that's personal preference. From what you've said, it seems that bedding is the main problem. Free floating a barrel can help in many cases, but if the action is free to wander...
Have the whole thing bedded, including the barrel. You can always sand out the channel and try it afterwards.

And then there are those like mine that have the barrel threaded out of alignment with the receiver. It took me a couple trips to a Winchester warrenty shop to convince them but they ended up sending it back and Winchester replaced the barrel and action.

Jeff

Trapdoor,

You seem to to have eliminated many of the variables already.

These two items popped out at me as things you want to address.

Quote:

---

The tang inletting isn't what I would call good. In fact, the action bears on the tang itself. I have tried shimming up the rear of the action with shim stock, to attempt to take some of the pressure off the actuall tang, but this hasn't helped either.
.
.
.
There are only two action screws on my rifle, no middle magaizine screw.....only the front and rear. Both are tight, but will loosen a bit after 10-15 rounds... I then retighten them.

---

You may want to relieve a bit of the wood where the action is touching it to avoid splitting the stock (I do not know that this will happen, but I have read of such occurrences).


Your action screws should not loosen after the initial firing. Degrease those two action screws as well as their holes; then apply a drop or two of red LocTite (or other threadlocker) on each and tighten them up.
Loose action screws often show up as bullets 'walking' across the target. Loose action screws have resulted in a split stock; a guy I knew had exactly that happen to his showpiece .340 Weatherby's stock.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progrss.
George
P.S. If all else fails, sell the gun, but keep the wife!

As noted the screws should not be allowed to move. For now do as suggested and mark them with a pen so your sure they are not moving. There are many things to look at of course. Just a few are that it's not bedded on the magazine box, the screws are not bottoming out in the action and the crown is ok.

I'd have it glass bedded to start with and then have the smith shoot it....

Since it shoots so many different patterns, and not just one or two I'm suspecious that it may be you flinching...A rifle will normally tell you what is wrong by its patterns, for instance vertical stringing is an indication of upward pressure on the barrel, horizontal indicates pressure on one side or the other and so fourth...and your description also could describe a bad barrel...but yours is doing everything so it could very well be you for the most part or a combination of both..

If the barrel is good then it can be easily fixed by a competent gunsmith or tinkerer...

I also have suspecions as to the bedding inasmuch as you think it has pressure at the tang, in which case it will or should have split at the grip...

At any rate a simple glass job should do the trick and I personally would get rid of the barrel recoil lug, its not needed on a 375...A simple glass bedding will surfice and if you want some cross bolts that can't hurt..Some winchesters have them but some win. cross bolts are for decoration only and are simple plugs in the side...

(previously posted in African Hunting when another fellow had a similar problem...)

The solution to your .375 issue is a fine Mauser rifle from Reimer Johannsen:



Or you could get this Dakota:




www.hallowellco.com

Some of the things said yesterday about me flinching had me a bit concerned, so I went and shot it again, just to make sure... I paid particular attention to that thought. I am 100% sure now, at least for yesterday's range session, that flinching was not the issue, and I still got the same results, generally speaking.

Group 1: 2 1/4"
Group 2: 2 1/4"
Group 3: 2 1/4"

This is quite indicative of "normal" results; of three groups, one strings horizontally, one vertically, and another doesnt really string, but tends toward stringing.

I know I aint the best shooter in the world, but I know I can shoot better than these groups, so I am confident that I aint the sole culprit.

Suggestions lean towards a bedding job, so hopefully that'll cure some of it... Any opinions on that thought?

Let me see if I can fix your post.



Group 1: 2 1/4"



Group 2: 2 1/4"





Group 3: 2 1/4"



Can you number your shots for us? I'm trying to get an idea of your shot-to-shot variations.



George

Updated groups. Was there a problem with my post; I could view the pics on my screen, so I thought they were inserted correctly. Will try again.

Group 1

Group 2

Group 3

There was a suffix on the URL of your first batch of photos which work when you're in ImageStation, but not for the rest of us (who aren't signed in).
If you right-click on them, you'll see the suffix.

George

So can you see the second batch? Did I get the correct suffix deleted?

Yes, your follow-up post shows the photos.

George

Thanks for the help George!

Since I am not the best here on mechanical aspects (most of my rifles I have been fortunate enough that they shoot well, the one that doesn't I'm still working on) so I thought I would ask some things about the human aspect.

How are you resting the rifle? shooting it? This will make a difference in repeatability.

Have you tried to shoot it with the open sights?

Are you making sure you aim to the same point each time and not trying to compensate for the last shots location? (I know, this sounds too obvious, but you'd be surprised).

Now, I am not a great shot, and don't have a rest that once set never moves, so when I am in doubt I am fortunate enough to be able to get my stepfather to shoot it. If he can't group with it there is a problem. Since you don't have that option it might be worth the 30 dollar UPS round trip to send it to somebody willing to troubleshoot the things for you that won't involve making expensive changes. If it is much more money than you have in it now consider getting something else. A new CZ for 650 would sit you well to go, and aside from adding your scope and sighting it in you shouldn't HAVE TO DO anything to it.

keep us posted.

Red

Dago,

Rest is a Wichita with Protector front bag and Protector rear bag... I shoot a lot of varmint rifles as well as all my other bench shooting off this rest. And I take care to ensure rifle is in same position at every shot.

Yes, I shoot the same sight picture.

FWIW, I prefer to use the very mild strength (purple) Loctite on action screws of guns with wood stocks- the purple stuff is designed to stay slightly mushy and can be retightened without "cracking" the bond. If the stock dries out a little and the screws become slightly loose, you can tighten them up without re-Loctiting.

I talked to Mark Penrod a few months back and he was too busy at the time to work on my rifle, so I opted to take the rifle to a local gunsmith for a bedding job.

I picked the rifle up this past weekend and this morning I shot it. I picked the load that gave me the best "promise" from a multitude of loads tried, trying to find a "majic" cure, but failed. The load consisted of IMR4064 and 300 gr. Sierra.

I shot 4 - 3 shot groups and the largest was right at one inch...smallest at 3/8" and the two others both at 3/4".

Some more shooting and I hope to confirm that a simple bedding job was all that was required to turn the rifle into a shooter!

Thanks all for the help!

Trapdoor,

From Mr. Atkinson:

I'd have it glass bedded to start with and then have the smith shoot it....

Since it shoots so many different patterns, and not just one or two I'm suspecious that it may be you flinching...A rifle will normally tell you what is wrong by its patterns, for instance vertical stringing is an indication of upward pressure on the barrel, horizontal indicates pressure on one side or the other and so fourth...and your description also could describe a bad barrel...but yours is doing everything so it could very well be you for the most part or a combination of both..

If the barrel is good then it can be easily fixed by a competent gunsmith or tinkerer...

I also have suspecions as to the bedding inasmuch as you think it has pressure at the tang, in which case it will or should have split at the grip...

At any rate a simple glass job should do the trick and I personally would get rid of the barrel recoil lug, its not needed on a 375...A simple glass bedding will surfice and if you want some cross bolts that can't hurt..Some winchesters have them but some win. cross bolts are for decoration only and are simple plugs in the side...

--------------------
Ray Atkinson


The rest of the suggestions to your post were from some very knowledgeable shooter/hunters. It's great of them to share their experience with you, but from my observations, use Mr. Atkinson's thoughts first. He always seems to nail it down quickly, being it hunting or shooting problems. Don't get me wrong, the rest of the Gents here are also fine hunters and shooters, but his experience, gathered through the years, shows where he's from.

Glad to see you've got your 70 shooting as it should. I've been considering a left/handed 70 in 375, but read too many negetive posts up to now. Maybe I'll re-look my thinking.

Roger QSL

Ok- I'm going to give you some very sage advice. Listen -up cause I've been there and done that about 100 times as many here can testify. SELL or trade THAT PIECE OF CRAP IMMEDIATELY! DON'T WASTE TIME TRYING TO GET IT TO WORK! You will just waste alot of time and get frustrated. Without a GOOD smith to figure it out for you ( READ BIG BUCKS HERE) you are wasting your time. Basically if a .375 H&H won't shoot a 1.5 inch group ASSUMING YOU FLINCH LIKE HELL, its a dog! Pay attention here! Sell it ! Get a good accurate gun! They are not hard to find! Sorry if I sound offensive, consider it professional curtesy!-Rob