Winchester M70 Stainless Classic 300 RUM rebarreled to 404 Jeffery.

McGowen stainless 24" barrel 0.720" at muzzle, sporter contour, and 10" twist

It weighs 8.25 lbs wearing only scope bases (Leupold QRW 8x40-ed). No open sights or barrel bands yet. No recoil lug on the barrel. Factory "milk jug" synthetic stock. 3.5 # trigger.

The bolt face was opened to 0.545" to precisely fit the Dave Manson headspace guage rim, and it feeds the Norma 404 Jeffery brass and DWM 10.75x73 Mauser brass like a charm. No other feed work necessary.

Two shots were fired into the ground and the chamber looks good.

I will do a survey loading to chronograph and watch accuracy preferences. Then zero in on my loads. First up with 400 grain Woodleigh bullets, Norma Brass, GM215M primers:

RL-15 grains 72, 75, 77, 79

Varget grains 72, 75, 77, 79

H4350 Extreme grains 85, 87, 89

The 10" twist barrel makes me hesitate to go any higher just yet.

Thanks to Saeed for the Varget idea. He was going by 2 grain increments, mostly even numbers, so I will try the odds, mostly. I will be happy to post results here when the rain quits long enough.

Thanks to all for expanding my horizons with all this talk of 404 Jeffery's Rimless Nitro Express, circa 1905. Now a stainless synthetic Frankenstein! Shiver me timbers!

Ron,
AWESOME!!!

does it feed flawlessly? any work had to be done for feeding?

pictures?

jeffe

Jeff,
Aye, it Feeds Flawlessly. That slippery 404 Jeffery case design doesn't hurt a thing. Easily holds three down and one chambered.

Picture: Imagine a factory M70 Stainless Classic with the new barrel described above.

Pictures will have to wait until the rifle proves to be a shooter and gets some distinguishing sights and barrel band added. I also have a Brown Precision fiberglass Stock that might replace the Milk Jug stock. Maybe a black finish for all the blasted stainless. What, NP3 you say? There are all kinds of stocks available for M70 Winchesters, eh?

I go for function, durability, and cheap!

Ron,
what sights you gunna use? black or SS? If you use SS, where you getting em?

Hey Billy,
You hearing this?!!!

Hey, aint there savage's out there in the rums?
now that would be an abomination.. a savage SS, with a choate (choke) sniper stock, in 404?

jeffe

Jeffe,
The front sight would be a banded, hooded NECG with flip up "moon" bead, maybe.

The rear would be an NECG receiver sight that clamps on the QRW Leupold base. Or maybe later a Talley or Brockman peep.

No quarter ribs nor folding leaves, nor recoil lugs cluttering up the barrel, for now, but a barrel band for sling will get added.

Sights will be blacked/blued, no stainless. But a scope will be the primary sight on the gentle giant 404 Jeffery's Rimless Nitro Express, aka 10.75x73mm Mauser.

No Savages need apply, but that is an idea for a shop mule or load tester. But the thought of taking a Savage hunting makes me cringe. Holy Chadwick!

If I like the cartridge, something in walnut and blue with a drop box magazine might get rebarreled to 404 Jeffery. Then I would have a sheep rifle and a "safari" rifle, both in 404 Jeffery.

Why is the 404 Jeffery such a great sheep rifle? Because it is the latest fad for us sheep. Even Saeed has followed Mickey and Ray over the cliff. Everything old and obsolete is new again for us sheeple. Baaaa.

The 404 Jeffery is not baaaad at all.

Rip,
Why the 1/10" twist?
You could get the metal on this one blackened. There's a guy in Boise who does a good job at a fair price.
I know this would defeat the whole concept of being in the gun of the month club (only because we can afford the gun of the week club), but could you shoot this as is for a while, then have the drop magazine and wood added later? Are those Brockman pop-up peep sights pretty rugged? It is good to know that our "milk jug" stocks are made possible at such a favorable price by the efforts of our anti-gun, earth-first, enviro-wacko, compulsive recycler fellow citizens....
JCN
PS I told Hornady today that you would buy 500 404 bullets if they would make them.

That sounds wonderful. I wish USRAC made the M-70 in RUMs in left-hand configuration.

George

GeorgeS, why don't you just become a "right" convert?

RIP,

I just ordered a Model 70 in 300 RUM to do the same thing. I am assuming you used a #5 barrel from McGowen. Any significance to the 1-10 twist. I plan on loading it up to do 2300 - 2350 FPS with 400 grain bullets.

Also any suggestions on a stock other than the "milk jug" one. I was thinking of a McMillian as I really like a cheek piece.

BigB

If you want a real gun then load that 404 with IMR-4831...95 grs. is normally max..I hunt with 93 grs. all with any 400 gr. bullet...And it is the most accruate load powder in the guns I have had...RL-15 is a good second choice, and it meters better of course..That IMR4831 max load was throughly tested by North Fork Industries recently.

Mickey,
Thanks for being so gentle, like a good shepherd. I am a sheep come late to the fold. Your suggestions are noted, but remember, I am a black sheep of the 404 Jeffery flock.

Thanks, George. Life is tough for a leftie. Might as well go the custom bottom metal route, eh? Make it a drop box with a fancy walnut stock too?

BigB,
George Hoffman and Andy Tillman both say a faster twist penetrates better. Everybody says that any bullet and barrel must have about 20 yards from the muzzle for the bullet to "go to sleep" or stop yawing. This whole rifle is an experiment. I have had excellent luck with 10" twist barrels on the 510 JAB/500 A2 as well as a 470 Capstick. 14" to 16" twists seem to be traditional/common for the 404 Jeffery.

Good luck with your project. It should be a snap for any competent gunsmith. Just be sure that any reamer or brass matches the 10.75x73mm Mauser (CIP European specs for the 404 Jeffery), as Johan and others have recommended here before.

I have a Brown Precision stock for my rifle already. The Milk Jug Stock is working fine so far:

Norma brass, GM215M primer

Varget
72 grains>>> 2125 fps
75 grains>>> 2233 fps
77 grains>>> 2275 fps
79 grains>>> 2336 fps

Reloder 15
72 grains>>> 2120 fps
75 grains>>> 2227 fps
77 grains>>> 2290 fps
79 grains>>> 2360 fps

H4350
85 grains>>> 2276 fps
86 grains>>> 2304 fps
87 grains>>> 2329 fps

The case was about 99% full of H4350 at 87 grains, so I just decided to stop there, for the first spin with that powder.

With Varget, there is still some "shake room" in the case at 84 grains with my components. Saeed went to 86 grains with the Varget.

I fired these loads rapidly over a chronograph with a 2.5X Leupold scope on the rifle. The 77 grain Varget load was noticeably the most accurate for me. Temperature was 82 degrees F. The rifle cooled off in an air conditioned truck cab between strings.

I plan to try 80, 81, 82, 83, and 84 grains of Varget next. Then consider Ray's IMR 4831 load if I have not found a best load with Varget, in the 2400 fps ballpark.

My chronograph results are about 50 fps slower than Saeed's for the Varget, but my barrel is only 24" (Saeed's was 25.5" with 14" twist) and my bullet was a Woodleigh 400 grain RNSP loaded to 3.5" OCL versus Saeed's WalterHog 400 grainer at 3.6" OCL.

Varget was more uniform and accurate than RL-15 in this case, and just a little bit slower in velocity for identical charges, on average. Varget's burn rate on my chart was a little slower than RL-15. Varget is supposed to be temperature insensitive too, eh? Also, a max load can be had with it at about 100% load density, no compression, I reckon, in a modern black sheep 404 Jeffery.

Ray:

With all due respect this 95 grain load of yours and I have seen it repeated many times alludes my simple IQ.

How do you get 95 gr of IMR 4831 into a 404 Jeffery case with a 400 gr bullet?

So I went and tried?

My fired 404 Norma cases take some 105 odd grains IMR 4831 when filled to the brim.

So I filled one with 95 gr of IMR4831 with a drop tube and I have only about a 1/4 inch of neck to seat the bullet and than I seated the bullet and here is the picture. It wont go?

So again how do you do it?



The load has been compressed and the depth of the bullet on the left is the deepest it will go with compression, it sits way proud in the case with 95 gr of IMR 4831

With this in mind where are you with regards to the maximum allowable pressure on this caliber for clearly you should by all account be way over the allowable industry maximum?

I looked at the North fork website and they do claim 2600 fps possible with their 380 gr bullet but warn that it may be way out of bounds for a original factory 404 rifle?

John,
My mind has been warped by the likes of George Hoffman and Andy Tillman, into thinking a faster twist equals better penetration, and any rifle and bullet needs about twenty yards from the muzzle for the bullet to go to sleep and quit yawing. The faster twist will be good for long monometals, if I ever get any!

The black sheep rifle definitely needs to be made black someday, but no drop box. It is a sheep rifle, after all.

I like the Brockman peep but haven't used one yet.

And I anxiously await a Hornady .423 bullet. I have dibbs on some 320 grain GSC HV's supposed to be in the pipeline. Then a sheep rifle will truly be made from a 404 Jeffery, if I ever get the 320 grainers.

Alf,
The cat is out of the bag! This is why I have not tried the IMR 4831. I ran out of space with the H4350 at 87 grains with the 400 grain Woodleigh. The IMR-4831 is bulkier and slower than the H4350, so I am scratching my head over that one too.

I was loading some .404s up tonight & I also thought of trying Ray's load. I also drop tubed 93gr IMR4831 in a Norma case & couldn't get a Hawk 400gr to seat @ the 3.55" I like to seat my bullets to. I can get a 350gr to seat but no way w/ the 400gr. I get 2230fps w/ 83gr IMR4831 or 84gr RL19 under a 380gr NF(23" bbl.). One more grain each under a 400gr Hawk or Woodleigh or Barnes is 2175fps. I would never argue w/ Ray, I just can't duplicate his load. BTW these loads will print right @ 1moa if I am having a good day off the bench.

RIP, you might want to give H4831sc a try, 93gr comes to the base of the neck w/o a long drop tube. I'm happy w/ a 400gr bullet @ 2200fps+.

Fred, my fellow 404 Jeffery flock member,
I'll keep that in mind. The H4831SC does load with greater density, but it is also slower than IMR4831. Saeed also has great results with VVN550. 90 grains of that was giving him over 2600 fps with the 400 grain WalterHog, and a lot more of the loads were sub MOA for him than were the Varget loads.

All the Hodgdon Extreme powders are pretty temperature insensitive, eh? H4831SC Extreme or Varget Extreme or H4350 Extreme: all have possibilities. Which will be most accurate at around 2400 fps???

I would be happy with the 2275 fps Varget load of 77 grains if I can't find a more accurate load. It is capable of minute-of-buffalo-eye in my rifle.

I seem to get the best accuracy w/ 90% density or greater. Ray's proven IMR4831 load is like 110%. I have also tried RL15 & H4350 w/ decent results but the accuracy w/ RL19 or INR4831 is extreme (bottom group is my ,338x74K).

JCN,
You are well connected. I wouldn't dream of troubling Walter for his CAD data. But if Saeed should ever volunteer this WalterHog reproductive info I'll try to get it.

For now, a bright ray of sunshine is the Barnes TSX, coming soon in .423cal/400 grain. That'll do for sheep hunting with the 404 Jeffery.

Those ring-tailed Barnes bullets are pretty good. I'm working up a load in my 6,5 x 55 sm and they are accurate. The bore isn't getting as much copper as I've seen in the past. Like the old Herman's Hermits song: Something tells me I'm into something good.
Maybe Walter will license his blueprints to Barnes.
JCN
I am not wealthy, but my friends let me play with their toys, so it amounts to nearly the same thing.

I could set up a jig to cut off the 400 grain Triple-Shock X-Bullet at the base, then very carefully grind and polish it down to a flat based 320 grainer. This would be very fussy to do but an interesting experiment to see if I could get an accurate 2700 fps 300-320 grainer in the 404 Jeffery, for sheep hunting and varmint applications.

I don't think that is fussy. It would probably work if the bullet is a tangent ogive design. If it is a secant ogive it might move the CG back too far and make it a bit unstable. Certainly worth trying! Just an accurate cut and a touch with a chamfering tool to clean up the edge a bit should be all that is necessary.

RIP,
Reply? what reply,I have no reply and no waffle, I put 95 grs. of IMR-4831 in a case and crush it a bit, then I shoot it, maybe you an Alf are way caught up in technical bull shit. I have shot a lot of compressed loads without any problems what so ever and this load is very mild pressure wise, as IMR-4831 and H-4831 always has been.

A compressed load is no biggie with IMR or H 4831.. O'Connor loaded his .270 for years with 61 grs of old surplus 4831 and 60 grs. of the new stuff and that filled to the top of the case and then some. He used it in Africa also...I have used in in Africa and shot more than a few Buffalo with it, but I found it no more effective than my standard 93 gr. load. and its very accurate. Furthermore I have shot it in a lot of old Mausers without harm, and cases last forever. Northfork Industries found it well within specs pressure wise and I suspect that they added that misclaimer for CYA purposes..I have a lot more respect for the old Mausers than Alf, the ones I have owned were as strong as any Mauser, a mod 98 is a mod 98 for the most part.

Since I have never had a problem with this load,and its my most accurate and fastest load, its MY choice and I will always use it, so now as you say RIP, BITE ME!

At least you have come around to using the 404 and I remember the days when you shunned it with a passion, talk about waffle...

My suggestion to those who don't like this load for whatever reason, is not to use it, seems that would solve your problem better than all this BS.

Ray,
You bit me! But it didn't hurt! Did you forget those teeth again? Just in case, I hope your shots are up to date.

Thanks for the reply, but I cannot bring myself to bite you back. Sorry, I'm afraid of what it might taste like.

I am satisfied with your "crushing" response. I guess when you pulverize that much of the powder, you increase the burn rate of IMR-4831 to about that of IMR-4350, and your velocities start jumping about 60 to 90 fps for each additional grain of powder instead of 25 to 30 fps per grain of powder which we expect in the linear portion of the powder charge versus velocity plot.

Hope that satisfies Alf. It does satisfy me.

I still think the .416 Rigby is King, but I will allow the 404 Jeffery along on my next sheep or varmint hunt. Variety is the spice of life.

RIP,
Thanks for the kind consideration, baby stink'um whiney butt!!

Have a cabin boy bring a bucket of sand to soak up the blood on the quarter deck.
How about cutting the front end off of a Barnes .423 Ringtail bullet and seating it in backwards? That might hit harder than Sister Beata used to nail me in grade school. This is a little off the subject, but my service career was a snap after getting through Catholic grade school and High School.
JCN

JCN,
The yet to be available .423/400 TSX is a flat base bullet. Wouldn't feed backwards very well even in the 404 Jeffery.

Alas, there just aren't many good varmint/sheep bullets for the 404 Jeffery, like there are for the .416's ... ever since the too soft 404J 300 grainers got a bad rap in Africa, back when Ray was riding the range in diapers.

Plenty of good 400 grainers in 404J ... the 350 RNSP Woodleigh is readily available but not my cup of tea.

I might be stuck with the heavies unless the 320 grain HV's materialize, or the sawed off TSX's work.

Mr. Chadwick thought the 404 Jeffery was a fine sheep rifle with the 300 grainer. The greatest North American trophy ever taken, the No.1 B&C stone sheep, was taken with a 404 Jeffery. It wasn't a one-shot kill, but was it because the 300 grainer was lousy or was Mr. Chadwick a poor shot?

I guess I should just overlook the occasional consternations from Business-as-Usual-Ray. He will not be changed. He still will not admit that a Mauser action spacer does not constitute pillar bedding! He is getting long in the tooth and might not make it through another winter, so I should be nice. Swab the deck.

Aye captain.
Cut the nose back a bit, and mill about 20 grains off the ass at a whack. When you get to 320 grains, if it is still grouping, salute the f****r and go sheep hunting.
JCN

RIP,

Thanks for the help, I gave McGowen a Model 70 S/S 300 RUM today and told him to turn it into a 404 Jeffery . 25 inch #5 barrel and a McMillian stock. Will give a report when I get it back. It should make a good bear/buffalo rifle. I was thinking of a 1 1/2 X 5 Leupold as I have a spare. But I think such a fine sheep rifle may need a more powerful scope.

By the way does anyone need a 300 RUM take-off barrel. I never shot it.

BigB

BigB,
Harry McGowen makes good barrels. Did you get a 10" twist? Your typo on the muzzle diameter? No.5 contour is perfect.
Try the Varget. Use the 300 RUM barrel as a tent stake.

I do believe the 10" twist will prove to give better penetration and give no problems at all with getting good velocity and low pressure.

All that has been tested and written up by Norbert and Andy and others just screams FAST TWIST in the hunter's ear.

Scope: 2.5-8X Leupold, 2.5X Leupold, 1.5-5X Leupold, 1.75-6X Leupold, take your pick.

You got it right!

And to anyone that cringes at the thought of my stainless-synthetic-Americanized 404 Jeffery: Bite yourself!

.

RIP,

25 inches long .700 at the muzzle 1 in 10 twist.

BigB

This Blows:

Hi John

Thanks for the email. I just received word today that we won't be
offering a .423 bullet for the 404 Jeffrey.

We Aim to please. Reloading is a great hobby, enjoy it!


Ty Herring
Customer Service
TyH@barnesbullets.com
Barnes Bullets Inc.
P.O.Box 215
American Fork, Ut 84003
Tel 801-756-4222
Toll Free 800-574-9200
Fax 801-756-2465




-----Original Message-----
From: noak@direcway.com [mailto:noak@direcway.com]
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 12:06 AM
To: email@barnesbullets.com
Subject: CONTACT FORM


John Noak at noak@direcway.com submitted the following comments: Will
you be offering a TSX bullet in .423\" for my 404 Jeffrey? Thanks, John
Noak


Everybody who has a 404 please send me an idea of what you would like in a .423 monometal bullet (driving bands, bluff nose, etc.), and I will see if I can get a thousand or so turned next winter. If anyone has an idea as to what alloy composition to use, and where to get it that would really help. Also, if there are any old threads that talk in detail about Walter's Hog bullet development please send a link to me.
How many would we have to order from North Fork to make it worth their while?
JCN

Notorius BigB,
skl1 is looking for a 300 Ultra take off barrel.
JCN

If I were going to get a .423 bullet made it would have to be a flat nose solid of pure copper, like the GS Custom 404 bullets or the ones I have from Bridger bullets...I would be interrested in that, until then I will just stick with the North Fork for softs, and I have a small supply of flat nose solids for now......