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Again: a RIFLE that really fits you, not a caliber. The rifle that you deliver a lethal first shot with. If that would fail, make sure you can handle the rifle well and deliver the 2:nd, 3:rd and 4:rth round really fast and accurate. | |||
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Well next spring i plan shooting one with a 376 Steyr...so we will see how that does... Unless Rob will name a price on his 458 over and under lott Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Idaho Sharpshooter Jack never shot fifty plus head of brown polarand grizzlys with is 270. He shot a mountain grizzly with it when sheep hunting. Jacks Quote from the Big Game Animals of North America (As I count up, I .can remember shooting eight quzzlies, helping shoot two, and being in on the death of two more. I have shot or helped to shoot eight with a 30-06 one with a 270 and one with a 300 weatherby magnum) page 212 capter on grizzlys (Both of the Allied Alaska brown bears I have killed were taken with a 375 magnum.) I can not find anywhere where he shot a polar bear only ref I can find is where he booked a hunt and could not make it. Just for the record. | |||
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I'm not an expert...but will quote a famed Big Game Hunter..John Wooters: " Faced with a crippled Brown Bear in the Alders, and given a choice between the .375 H&H,.458 Magnum, and .416 Taylor...I'd pick up the .416 without a second's hesitation." Harold Johnson in Cooper's Landing, Alaska developed the .50 Alaskan for Brown Bear at close range in the Alders. Elmer Keith opined he'd rather "bust him in the chest with a big .50 (.50-140)" I think it would mostly depend on what range you might expect & what you personally are comfortable..I like the idea of a .416 Taylor, myself. If you need the power, you've got it. Of course, there will be those that harp on the old bullet placement...of course...an Indian Squaw once shot one of the biggest brown bears ever with a .22 long Rifle at 10 feet, in the brain, an exact shot, she knew the bear's anatomy. But, I'd rather place a good shot with a .416 bullet, all things considered! Aloha, Tom | |||
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You gotta remember that Elmer Keith, esteemed as he is, is OLD SCHOOL. I don't know what'd I'd use on Brown Bear. But at least you're in the right section -- Big Bores. General John, my neighbor (Brigadier), notes that it takes 1800 ft lbs to drop an elk. I'm sure somehwere there's an energy spec for Brown Bear. Beyond ft lbs energy, I'd be looking for a BIG, heavy bullet. Brown Bear are really sort of pissy nasty even BEFORE you hurt them. | |||
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I have never hunted the great bears or for that matter nothing more dangerous than feral hogs and west Texas cougers, {working on that}. My first choice would be the 375H&H for the combination of the range and energy or knock-out value. But if all situations were close ranges or charges I would want more knockout and less range! Most normal conditions a 375H&H I think is optimum for the great bears although a 338 could do the job. The only shot that will stop a charge is a nervous system shot so placement can and does count at very close ranges. | |||
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3,000 ft lbs energy. Energy is listed in ballistic tables. This from Wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bear The Alaska Department of Fish and Game recommends as a minimum firearm for use against brown bear a rifle in the .30-06 range firing 200 grain expanding bullets moving at least 2,000 feet per second (610 m/s) at impact. Many Alaskan hikers prefer using shotguns firing a Brenneke slug at magnum velocities or lever action rifles able to fire magnum-level .45-70 cartridges. These firearms are lighter and easier to tote than a full size bolt-action hunting rifle, but can fire heavy hardcast slugs which impact with 3,000 ft·lbf or more at close range. They are less effective in hunting brown bears due to limited effective range, but for purposes of defense that is not of paramount concern. In the past decade, a number of high-powered handguns have been produced in the United States for use in handgun hunting and bear defense. These include the .454 Casull revolvers produced by Taurus and Ruger and the .500 Smith & Wesson produced for that company's supersized "X" frame revolver. While these cartridges, properly loaded, are sufficient to kill any bear, their enormous recoil and weight make them difficult to deploy quickly in the field. Their utility in defense against brown bears is still a matter of great controversy. | |||
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There is a PH in Africa who has a GO INTO THE WEEDS rifle, that is perfect for that purpose with wounded Brownies in the alders. It is a 458Win Mag, Winchester Mod 70 CRF, with an 18" barrel, and housed in a Macmillan kevlar stock. It has a lug on the barrel just forward of the forestock, or one of the pistol combat flashlights on the bottom of the barrel, and a large front white bead, and a ghost ring rear sight. He uses this rifle to go into the weeds with wounded lion, buff, and leopard. His trackers, call this rifle the "BLACK BITCH", and you certainly don't have to ask anyone if it fired when you pull the trigger.  The above rifle wouldn't be my pick for HUNTING brown bear, but it would be tops for it's intended purpose. Just give me a good CRF bolt rifle chambered for 375 H&H, with 300 gr Nosler partitions, or swift a-frames, with a good scope to hunt old grumpy brown bear!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Is there a "best" cartridge for brown bears? IMO, no there isn't. Give me a rifle that functions flawlessly (gone over by a good gunsmith), whether it be 270 Win. or 375 H&H, and I'll use it to poke a bear with it. | |||
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45-70 Govt, no offense, but how many head of dangerous game have you taken? I was privileged to vist MR Keith at his home several times. The trophy room behind his house did have two polar bear, a nice set of ivory tusks, a leopard rug (in the living room), a very nice lion, rhino, and lots of other big game mounts. He also guided hunters for nearly fifteen years, and made the Idaho Camp Perry Team several times. He also put big game hunting with a handgun on the map...some little piddly thing called the 44 SW Magnum. I would really like to see what he called "your bonafides" before allowing your statement to pass. Large game animlas are getting smaller as the years go by...forty years ago NObody shot elephants under 100lbs per side on purpose, or Moose under 70 inches. Old School these days seems to be a term used commonly by young people who could not have reached high enough to kiss most of the old timers ass, standing on their mother's shoulders. Again, no offense meant, but you got to be able to back up those type of statements with a L-O-T of personal experience or retract/refrain from making them. I will check back shortly to read your hunting resume. Look forward to that post. regards, Rich | |||
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One other question to Phil Shoemaker, why do you use the handle 458, then? Just curious, how many bear have you killed with these less powerful cartridges (under the 338WM power level), and what (as a guide) do you carry right now? Just curious. I have talked with over a dozen Alaskan guides and the all said "bring the biggest rifle you can put three rounds on a (9") pieplate at 50yds in less than fifteen seconds, or a close paraphrase. Not fussing, just hearing the conversation go smaller and smaller hunting something that would kill and eat you if given the opportunity... Rich | |||
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In the past twenty-five years I have probably killed only eight or ten brown bears with calibers at, or under, the 338 level. My preference when I am guiding is the 458 Win. I have used mine for twenty-four years and have absolute faith in it. I have never had a bear that did not immediately drop from a well placed hit. the advice you got from other guides is not bad advice. Use the biggest rifle you can handle is good advice but prove to yourself that you actually can handle it. I would say three shots on a nine inch plate in ten seconds or preferably less, CONSISTANTLY, is a more realistic goal. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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A bit off topic. Open sights and quickrelease scope mounts,is this a good idea when hunting brown bear?? If a client wounds a bear,is it their choice to help find and kill the bear?? or do clients just get in the way and may things more dangerous. "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Sir Winston Churchill | |||
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I used a old West German Mark 5 in .340 Wby. Mag. to take my big boar back in 1988. The Nosler partition 250 grain bullet dropped him at 25 yards with a neck shot. My guide was very impressed with the .340's performance. If I were to hunt another Kodiak Bear, or perhaps a Polar bear I would use this rifle again. Being confident with a proven rifle will give a hunter some peace of mind in a dangerous sitsuation. | |||
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Every hunt is different - that is one of their main attractions - and I make my decision on whether or not a client assists in following up a wounded bear at the time. The first question I ask myself is - can I trust this person, who just wounded an undisturbed bear, to stay cool under pressure and kill a wounded one that could possible be trying to kill us ? AND not shoot me in the back. Depending on the circumstances of the original shot, where the bear was hit and my assessment of the hunter's personality and gun handling habits I may or may not allow the hunter to accompany me. Fortunately, as long as I do my job - which is not to get the hunter close enough to hit the bear but to get them so close they can't miss - having to track wounded bears is seldom an issue. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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thanks, Phil for the response. One other question if you have a minute. What do you tell hunters for a caliber? It is very hard to argue with the 458WM for anything that hunts back. Rich | |||
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I tell them that I will be comfortable and confident if they show up with a 30-06 or 300 with any 180 to 220gr premium bullet. (The new 240 Woodleigh would be even better) but that if they need or want a bigger caliber to get a .338 Win with premium 250 gr bullets. I recommed these calibers because they are common and proven big bear killers. The vast majority of hunters booking bear hunts are not gun people but rather hunters who are busy doing what they do and just want to hunt bears. Bigger calibers might(?) & should, kill a little better but from my experience 99% of the hunters I see can't shoot them as well as smaller calibers and I would rather deal with a heart shot bear from a 30-06 than a gut shot one with a 378Wby. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, I agree with you 100%. It's not the rifle, but the hunter that determines success. An experienced hunter with a .30/06 will most likely fare very well when hunting North American big game. Dangerous or not. | |||
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At 25 yrds? A .22Magnum, but aim half way between eye socket and ear canal. Don't miss, I heard it's unforgiving! | |||
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