Just finished reading an article by John Sundra in the March edition of American Hunter entitled "High Caliber Winners and Losers". The article is basically a short history of why some caliber have made it big, (.243,.270, etc.) while other very similar cartridges haven't, ie. .244, .280. At the end of the article, there is a sidebar where he talks about the current crop of ultra mags, short mags, etc. which I won't go into except for his final statement which reads:

"And if Remington ever decides to kill its .416 Mag., it will be by introducing the .416 Ultra Mag. which in my not-so-humble opinion would come about as close to the perfect dangerous-game cartridge as you'd ever find."

What do you big bore enthusiasts think about this statement?

Probably fits into the way a lot of folks think but if I were going to subject myself to the additional recoil that would be involved I would go to a larger diameter buller at the same 2400fps offered by the regualr .416 Remington.

From what I understand, Remington killed the 416 Mag last March. Just try to find brass for it. I'm not happy. Hope if they introduce the 416 U.M., it flops!

How do you figure they killed a certain caliber just because you can not find brass?
Factories make stuff in runs...not all runs are every year. Sako runs 7 x 33 every three or four years. Most never heard of a 7 x 33. You can buy loaded 416 Rem Mag ammo out the wazoo...I have over a case of Rem or Fed sitting here now..for sale..no problems in getting it.
Supposedly everyone and his dead dog wanted a left hand Mod 70 Safari Grade in caliber 375 H&H. I bought 6 and sold 5 so far. Where are the rest of these folks that have been waiting on a rifle that has not been made by Winchester ever or for years?
Shoot the loaded stuff and you have all the brass you can stand. Now it is even fireformed to your chamber.
You are not going to replace the 416 Rem Mag with zip...it already shoots the right speed, right foot pounds, right weight. Anything above is just excess and most likely will not do the job as well...how many 416 Wby. Mag. shooters you know?
I can feed my family in what I sell in Rem Mag but hell I couldn't afford a pack of gum with sales from a Wby Mag and I might be able to get a burger for one with sales from a Rigby.

[This message has been edited by Harry (edited 03-07-2002).]

Harry,
Very well said! What you left out is the part about the 416 Ultra not holding as many rounds as a comparable 416Rem, or the ease of which you can make brass for the Rem by using 375 cases.
If it ever comes out I'm sure it will be a nice cartridge, but what does it offer that others already provide? Nothing.
If I were Remington, I would standardize the 458/404, at least then they would not be castrating themselves.

I have a 416 Rem and so far I have had no problems finding either loaded ammo or brass.

This cartridge works great for Africa with 400gr@2,4oo f/s loads. I would not buy a 416 RUM, because I think it is not needed. I would go to the Rigby (hotter reloads) if I wanted more punch in a 416. In my opinion, and from a purist�s point of view, the 416 Dakota is the most balanced 416, but it is practically a wildcat and too close to the 416 Rem in performance to make a real difference.

The reasonable way to go for more power than a 416 is to upgrade to a larger caliber like the 458 Lott, so Remington should keep the 416 Rem and bring out something bigger...

I expect that if Remington brings out a 416 RUM it is going to be a colossal non-event and a sales failure... And, incidentally, there will be a brass problem with this cartridge as well...

Antonio

There simply isn't a big enough market for big bores for a company the size and temperment of Remington. When Remington brought out their 416, it was really the only factory 416, since then we've seen the 416 Rigby rise from the past via Federal/Ruger and now CZ, as well as Weatherbies beleted 416 Rigby.

There are already too many 416's, and a new factory offering would only worsen the problem. While I'm not a Remington fan, I think they got their 416 right the first time, though w/o due credit to George Hoffman.

I think the Sundra comment is well thought out and echos the sentiment of many others. That is " the .404 case is about optimun size for .416's and .458's", bigger than the belted mags, but not as large as the Rigby case. I wouldn't rush out to change, but it may have been a theoretically better place to start.

Patrick-
I agree that the 404 case would have been a better place to start for an "ideal" 416, but the market is past that point these days! Dakota already has the 416RUM, their own 416 Dakota is exactly that, except for having a proper 404 head size.
In my use of the 460G&A I found the 404 case to be marginal for shoulder diameter, it works but barely. The 416 Rigby case is a much better case upon which to base a 45cal offering. Dakota thought so too, and that's why they didn't make their 450 on the 404 case.
The old 404 is a great basis for any caliber cartridge from 338 through 416 but below or above that there are better choices.

Paul H,

AMEN! Especially to your comment regarding Remington's obvious failure to tip their hat to George Hoffman. Thanks for the cartridge Sir, its a dandy!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Excellent Comments ... all.

Just a thought.

What if they neck the case up to .423 and come out with a 404 Rem or 423 Rem Express like Dakota? They could have their cake and eat it to. Those of us with the 416 Rem would be happy and those wanting a non-belted case in a 40 cal would be happy. Just a thought since so many of us have more than one 30-06 in the closet. I would be tempted to get one of these also.

Good shooting!

Uh, Snapper, it's called a .404 Jeffery with a proper rim. Been around since the turn of the last century. Works good, too. Remington can't improve on it. Frankly, for the handloader, the .416 Rem is a waste because you can do the exact same thing with the ol' .404. Same bullet weight, same velocity and slightly more frontal area. If Remington designed it, it's over-sold and redundant. If they stole someone else's idea and didn't give credit, shame on them. Sorry, I just don't like Big Greed, I mean Green!

Sarge

4x4,
There is some .416 Rem brass floating around here in Helena, MT. If interested, let me know and I will put you in touch with a couple of dealers here that have some.
The Bearman

OK bearman...let me know.

The .416 RemMag is simply the 8mm RemMag necked up to .416...I think Remington decided to save on tooling cost for a new case when the 8mm didn't go anywhere...after all, it the 8mm Mag case will give you 2400 fps why go anywhere else and spend more money for a round that will have limited appeal at best.

I still don't get why some manufacturer out there doesn't get a bright idea like using the 404 casing for a new rifle in something like a 404 Jeffrey. Sure makes sense to me. I guess it just don't count unless it sells. Someone gave me the numbers the other day re number of guns sold in 416 and 375 as compared to 30-06 and 270 and it was amazing. It is a wonder they make us any big bores at all. I am glad they do. Good hunting "D"

D Hunter:

It would be interesting to see those sales numbers, could you post them, even if they are approximate?

Thanks, Antonio

I can't remember even vaguely what the numbers were, just how I felt about how few big bore fans there really are out there. It would seem that all that are interested are on this forum. Good hunting. "D"

I don't know about the sales figures now but I was told by Geo Hoffman that helped Rem with some of the development work on the 416 that Rem. figured they would sell about 500+- of this rifle when introduced. They got orders for 2200 instead. That was in the beginning so I don't know what the figures are now but I know I still sell more 416's than I do 375 or 458's. I most likley sell a dozen 416's a year and I only work out of an office and not a walk in store. Makes you wonder what I could do if I was back in my old walk in store.
I can not remember the last time I sold a 458 or a 460. I have sold maybe one or two 404's and several Lotts. The 416 Rem Mag rules...I sell 10 to 1 Rem Mag over Rigby and have never sold the supposedly super duper 416 Weatherby. I have sold more 470 NE's and 577's NE's than 458!

The 416 Rem is one of my favorite calibers along with the 404 Jefferys..I shoot them booth.

I don't need nor want more velocity than the above as it just equates to nothing more than extra recoil and muzzle blast..If I want more than the above then I will go to a real monster caliber.

JohnS,
Please explain to me how something "barely works" I love your 460 G&A....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray-
"Barely works" means it has a marginal shoulder and one must be extremely careful with his sizing die adjustment. Just a bit too much and you have excessive headspace and a chance the rifle will misfire. This is why Alphin designed the 450 Dakota from the Rigby case instead of using the 404 like he did on the others. I have sold mine and gone to the Dakota round, just less hassle with loading and more importantly, brass is easily available along with factory ammo if needed.