Hi Gents-
I am contemplating building a 577. Largest thing I have ever owned before is a 375. I am not afraid of recoil, but it is not on my list of favorite things, either. Since this gun is going to be a double rifle, (secured an action, and it is so big that anything smaller will be too heavy or ill balanced) it must be regulated for a specific load. I would like to hear some feedback from some of you who have considerably more experience than I in dealing with large bores. My questions are generally around
- the biggie, recoil- considering a full house load and a 750 grain bullet, in a gun that I am anticipating weighing in at around 14 lbs.
- What about the idea of setting the gun up from the outset for a more "reduced" load, say around 1850 with a 750?
- What about a reduced load with a 600 grain bullet?
- Where can I get dies,brass, and bullets?
- Any experience with cast bullets?
- accuracy of specific loads?
- What brand of barrels do you all have experience with?
- Anyone got a reamer they would rent?

I am looking forward to this project more than any other gun project I've ever been involved in, and am grateful for your help-QW

I hit the send button too quick, sorry.

[ 09-25-2002, 02:20: Message edited by: mickey ]

Not hardly, allthough I appreciate the complement. I came across a Beretta 10 ga. sxs, and having read W.E. Brown's book on making double rifles from double shotguns, this one seemed like a perfect fit. Brown lives about 75 miles from me, and I have talked to him on the phone a couple of times, and he agrees that this sounds like a goodie. He has built 7 doubles from shotguns, and has not had one get loose yet. The Beretta is a monoblock gun, so that part is pretty straighforward, at least it appears so. It is 2.5 inches across the face, and has a pretty long "bar". It is a double underbite, with a hidden greener crossbolt, and is very well made. The 10 ga bbls are in pretty tough shape, so it's not a real sacrifice. Crown parts has ribs that sound like they will be a pretty close fit, so it seems to me, an amature machinist, that it will be a feasable project. A good friend of mine is a master machinist, and has offered to help with any part but the regulation!!

Will this be a dangerous game rifle or a hobby rifle?

If it is for dangerous game use, or if you want the rifle to have resale value, I suggest using the standard factory load of 750 grains at 2050 fps for regulation. Going to a light bullet or low velocity will adversely affect penetration, taking it out of the category of buffalo and elephant rifles.

Alternatively, you could chamber it for 577 BPE which is 650 grains at 1850 fps factory loaded. That would be a good lion and zebra gun, but a bit light on buffalo and elephant, again because of penetration.

There is ample precedent for using reduced cast loads for practice. If you play around with them enough you can find something that regulates good enough so that you do not need full house loads all the time. XMP5744 seems to the powder of choice for cast bullets.

Oh, you had some more questions.

For brass and woodleigh bullets, go to www.huntingtons.com

For cheap jacketed bullets, go to www.hawkbullets.com

For reasonably priced dies, go to www.ch4d.com

You can get pre-threaded, pre-chambered (deep chambered) barrels from www.pac-nor.com and save the price of a reamer.

qw1437

Wow, I'm impressed. You must be a hell of a machinist to attempt this. There is a fellow in SE BC who built a 4 bore for himself. I met him at SCI years ago and he sent me a tape of the manufacturing and shooting it in Africa a couple of years ago. I'll dig out his name and number for you. He might be able to offer some advice.

Anyway, I now have the Grand Slam of .577's. These are the loadings that work in mine:

Thys .577 3 inch 750 grn. 145 grns IMR 4831
12 lbs and I don't like to shoot it much. 1 1/2 inch at 50 meters. 2050-75fps

I Hollis 2 3/4 750 grn. 125 grns IMR 4831 12lbs and recoils like my .470. bullets touch at 50 meteres, shot one elephant in Tanzania 4 years ago. 1825fps

Alex Henry 2 3/4 650 grn. 128 grns IMR 4831. 13 lbs, recoil like a .470. 1" at 50 meters. Shot two elephants in Zim two years ago. 1950fps

Alex Martin 3 inch 650 grain. Just got it last weekend and have no loading. Previous owner (PH from RSA used 3 inch 750 loads).

My favorite? Without a doubt the Hollis. The power is equivalant to a .500 NE and with the much larger bullet. Pleasant to shoot and very accurate.

Try Ferlach for Chopper lump barrels, about $5,000 a pair hammer forged. Maybe some one here has a better supplier.

For plinking and such I have found that if the velocity remains pretty close to spec, lighter bullets will work okay in most doubles. You can play with the lighter loads much more easily.

I have been fortunate enough to go to Africa once, but now that I have three great kids those days may not come again for some time. So, to answer your question, this rifle is being built most likely because I want a big bore double, and this is the only way its going to happen. A fun gun. A 577 BPE makes a lot of sense, but I have to confess my ignorance here- this can still be loaded in a smokeless configuration, correct? I am not interested in building a gun of this type that only shoots black- no disrespect to you lovers of smoke poles.

I was just reviewing some previous threads and read a bit about a 577 with a 600 grain bullet; I know Taylors book mentions two different loadings for a 577, one in 3" and one in 2 3/4".

I'd like to build this thing so I CAN use it if I want; I don't want to build a project like this if it is just going to kick the ever lovin' hell out of me every time I touch it off.

Try these folks
http://www.effebi.org/

The make 450, 470, 500, and 600 chopper lug, with ejectors, for ~2300 with ejectors, off your action. They take a couple days to reply, and it will be a tiff, but might be worth the effort. I still have a dream of building a double, but it's on hold right now.

Then can supply you with unregulated barrels, ejectors, and rib. Brazed and ready for you to get started.

Keep up posted.
jeffe

Thanks for the responses- I really like the idea of a 600 or 750 at a reduced velocity, especially if I could make it happen with a full 3" case.

A quick check of the web sites provided yields a lot of information, again, thanks.

Looks like I wont be buying brass by the hundred...

qw1437, I just sold a 577NE double rifle I'd had for several years. it weighed 13.2 lbs, and I never really enjoyed shooting the thing. I thought many times about rebarreling it to 500NE 3", if I had, I'm sure I'd still own it!

The 10 ga action being a mono-block will give you pleanty of wall thickness in the chamber area, for the 500 NE 3", and can be made in the 10.5 lb range, for easy all day carry. The extra wall thickness will also take away some of the strain on the action, and still give you a very capable double rifle, for what ever you want to shoot with it. It can be loaded anyway you want, since this is where the factory has the advantage over a new owner of a used factory double rifle. The factory physically regulates to a known load, this is much easier than working up a safe load that will regulate in a factory regulated rifle. One thing you need to know, if you dont already is, the barrels are not soldered into the mono-block on Barrettas, but heat, and cold shrunk on! This means it is not a simple matter of heating to remove the tubes form the mono-block. Most must be drilled out!

The other thing you need know is the 577NE will require a very large dia die set, and case trimmers are a custom matter, where the 500NE can be had in 7/8X14 die, and can be trimmed on a Lyman trimmer. Your press will have to have a large opening in any event, as the over all length is 3.68" for the 500NE 3.00", and 4.00", for the 577NE 3".

Keep us posted on this project, I'm fascinated by anything to do with the building of double rifles.

Mac what are the normal ballistics of the .500 Nitro Express 3"? What is the normal bullet diameter? Can it one be built to shoot BMG bullets?

I am looking for a future 50cal project I would like to build on a Ruger No1. One inportant ability is to shoot surplus BMG bullets.

thank you.

If I recall correctly, the 500 NE 3" pushed a 570 grain pill at 2150 fps. I think this was based on a 28" barrel length.

The bore of both the 500 NE and the BMG is .510 so the BMG bullets could theoretically be used in a NE rifle, but, I don't know if the NE twist rate will stabilise the longer, heavier BMG projectiles.

NEI does offer a nice mold for a 625 grain paper jacket bullet that could be interesting

~Holmes

CH4D makes beautiful oversize (diameter/length)dies for very reasonable prices. After looking at the dizzying rates charged by RCBS, it's great to know that something different is moderately affordable. Don't be scared off merely by diameter.

I can vouch for CH4 dies there excellent.

MacD-
Thanks for the info-help me a bit, here-

My concern in building this thing in anything less than 577 centers around weight. I'd think that building a 500 NE would up the weight more, as the wall thickness of the barrels increases. Understanding that I can order barrels from various outfits in whatever contour I can imagine , and can, as I have a pretty good lathe, contour them from that point even more should it be determined that its needed- but at what point do you get it out of whack due to the center to center distance from firing pin to firing pin? I guess my point is that I can make the barrels light, but what kind of distance between the barrels, and the corresponding rib that is going to need to support them? I am nothing near an expert in these matters, just a guy who happens to really like doubles to the point of having to make one, since I can't afford to buy one!

By the way, the barrels on this particular Beretta were soldered in, and did come out by use of a propane torch, lucky me!

I have machined off the front of the monoblock to be square with the face of the breech, and have bored out the existing rim of the 10 ga, to bore diameter, and now need to determine the caliber, barrel configuration, etc. I have spoken with a very nice lady at Pac Nor, who told me the whole shop is out deer hunting, and she could not handle my questions about barrels and weight, until they come back.

PC,
I can vouch for CH4 dies there excellent.[/QUOTE]

I have heard not only good things about CH4 dies. But may be in this caliber they are good.

In all cases I'd prefer a RCBS custom dies. Just my 0.02 cts.

QW1437

Years ago I talked to the people at Wilkes about adding an extra set of .470 barrels to a .360 #2 that I had. I was told that they would not do it as the serial number showed that the bar was not long enough to support the cartidge. They stated that as a 'rule of thumb' the bar should be as long as the shell.

What is the measurement on your shotty?

Mickey-
I will go home tonight and measure this, do you measure from the face of the standing breech to the end of the knuckle, I assume?

If that is the case, I can tell you that my action is not long enough to support anything in the 470-500-577 class, to be sure. But then, by that rule of thumb, neither are most of the guns that are being made today, Merkels, Chapuis, etc.

I am, in part anyway, operating under the pretense that so many of the older guns were built on actions that were larger in size than ones built today. Take a 470 from 80 years ago and compare the action's physical size to ones built today, IE a Merkel. The modern ones use steel that I assume is considerably stronger, which means they would use less of it- my assumption, anyway. (And I know what happens when you A..S..S..U..M..E). So many of the boxlocks that were built in the days gone by were built on what George Caswell from Champlins refers to as the "Webley Long Bar Action", which he calls his favorite boxlock for that reason- they stay on the face. I can tell you from memory that my 10 ga. Beretta action is 2.5 inches across the face of the standing breech, and I guess it would be about the same length from the breech to the end of the knuckle. I will measure it tonight and let you know-

Qw1437, I understand your conceren for weight distribution, in you finished rifle. The barrels, however will be turned slowly around the centers to very thin at the muzzles. The extra steel in the chamber end is a plus, and will take some of the strain away from the action. The barrel assembly being heavier,at the chamber end, makes it harder for thrust to move it away from the face, neutralizing some of the strain on the action bar!

The barrels of a double are not paralell, but converge from chamber to muzzle. The seperation between the barrels will reduce as you go toward the muzzles, because the barrels will be squeezed to converge. The barrels will be held at the breech, by the mono-block, and at the muzzle by the regulateing wedge. The ribs are only window dressing, for the most part. 90% of the regulation is done with no ribs on the rifle. When the regulation starts the barrel assembly should only be fitted with a wedge sticking out between the barrels, at the muzzle,I make mine about 4" long, and concave on each side, and the quarter rib fitted at the Mono-block end, with a standing rear sight installed. Here you decide approximently how high you want the rear sight according to the way YOU mount the stock. for a temperary front sight, I drill a hole in the top side of the regulation wedge at the muzzle, and thread it to accept a threaded piece of welding rod about as high as I want my final front sight.

The initial regulation is done with the barrel assembly locked in a padded vice by the under lumps, with the barrels supported about 12" out the barrels from the breech end. Place a target at the distance you want to regulate. This target should only have an aiming point, the target about 4 ft square, with a line drawn from the bottom corners accross to the oppisite top corners, through the middle of the aiming point, and your temporary front sight just touching the aiming point. At this point take a pair of empty cases without primers, and chambering them. Looking through the primer holes, Now you converge the barrels by pressing together till the right barrel is looking to the left of point of aim by about 3", and the left barrel is looking to the right by about 3", and both low about 3", more or less following the lines drawn through the aiming point. This is your starting point! Once the wedge is soldered to hold the adjustment, the rifle can be fired, useing a rod to punch out the empties, unless you have already made the extractors. I would reccomend tieing the rifle to a large tire, and fireing it with a long string for the first two rounds, then check for any sign of over pressure.

This is sort of a "fast forwarding" of the opperation, but you get the idea, this is not a short term job, but is quite invloved, and time consumming. The starting point ABSOLUTELY must be done properly to start with, or the rest will not go smoothly at all! When you get to installing the barrels and wedgeing them, get back to me, and I'll go into more detail!

[ 10-02-2002, 01:36: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Brent, they are very slightly bent, but is to a very small amount. One cannot see this in a rifled barrel. You failed to read the convergence being, by line of sight through the bore, the RIGHT barrel pointing at a point to the LEFT of point of aim at the distance you want to regulate. Vice-versa for the laeft barrel. You cannot regulate a set of barrels by line of sight, because when the rifle is fired, the RIGHT barrel rises up, and to the RIGHT from a point, remember, it was looking at on the LEFT , and low of the point of aim. So, as to line of sight, the barrels cross half way to the target, but the barrel time determens where the bullet hits the target AT the target. This is called barrel time, and this is the one thing that makes regulateing a double rifle not well understood, by most, and that includes many, if not most gunsmiths! The time the bullet remains in the barrel is the key. If the bullet is traveling too slow, the right barrel will print a bullet hole too high, and to the right, more or less following the "X" you drew through the center of the target from corner to corner. The laft barrel will print on the left, and high. If the bullet is too fast, the right barrel will print on the left, and low, and vice-versa. This is only to understand why the barrels are converged as they are.

When physicaly regulateing the barrels, if the right barrel is shooting on the right, and the left barrel is shooting on the left, then the barrels need more conversion, if the right is shooting on the left, and the left is shooting on the right the barrels need spreading.

Okay-
I'm getting the picture a little better here- so it seems that that the support for the muzzles has very little to do with the ribs, it is made up of the regulation wedge, which is considerably more solid than the ribs themselves, who offer a bit of support to the wedge, but not much else.
Can you discuss pressures? How does the pressure generated by a 500NE or a 470 NE compare to a 577?

Getting this thing into a little lighter gun (11 lbs or so) and a smaller caliber really would interest me- Quinn

I would go with a smaller caliber and I would not shoot a 577 of less than 13.5 lbs and that is too heavy to carry on a hunt unless one stays close to the truck...A 470 can be 10 lbs I suppose..

If I were going to the trouble, time and expense of building a double which I have done for the most part then I would use a rifle action as opposed to a shotgun action..That is a lot of time and work, so why skimp..You cannot hardly sell a double rifle built on a shotgun action...but a properly built double rifle brings big bucks...

I would use that action to build a 30-40 or 45-70 then after that learning session I would build a real double rifle. But to each his own.

mickey Tell us about your 577 Thys. ie weight, what loads do you shoot and how is the recoil? Compare it to rifles in the 450/470 class. I have handled a 600 Thys a 600 Westley Richards, and a 600 underlever Jeffery. The Jeffery was my favorite followed by the Thys, the Westley felt like a truck axle, It was a modern Westley. I would like to have a 577 or a 600. I am standing in line to have another hole in my head as we speak, as the same logic that wants one requires the other.

Would one be better having there double built in .470 cal or .500 nitro and making there stunt gun (.585 Nyati, .577 T-rex, .620 OK) in a bolt gun ?? Just wondering, it seems that some in this thread are suggesting a double is better in one of the smaller cals. And if you want the cannon it can be done reasonably cheaply on a bolt action of some varient.

450#2

The rifle is a boxlock, ejector. Engraved by Phillip Grifney with a Rhino head on one side, a buffalo head on the other and a frontal view of Shingwedzi, the Kruger 100 pounder on the bottom. Bordered in Gold with a bit of scroll to spice it up. I weighs 12 lbs (needs another kilo) and kicks the snot out of me. Much more serious than a .470. It has a modified beavertail forend and the whole thing feels like a well fit shotgun. 145 grains of 4831 and groups 4 in 1 1/2" at 50 meters. (center to center)(I'm not a snob on the meters but the range I go to is only marked in meters, go figure)

I am a fan of Thy's rifles, I think they are wonderful firearms and beautiful to see and hold. They all seem on the light side to me. One of these days I am going to take it back and have some weight or mercury recoil reducers put in. I got lucky with Phillip on the engraving, I think he is one of the best in the world. H&H thinks so because he is under exclusive contract to them now, except for old friends that is. Also, JJ Perideau apprenticed to Marcel and learned his trade in the Gunsmithing School in Liege where Marcel was the head instructor.

I had 3 .577's and one .470 made numbered 1 of 7 etc. planning to make 7, all with different elephants of the Magnificent 7 of Kruger. I actually saw Shingwedzi before he died and that is why I chose him for the rifle I kept. The other's went to friends who still have them.

I have 3 other .577's in different configurations but my favortite is an Issac Hollis 2 3/4 750 grn. load 125 grns 4831. A bit over 5000lbs of ME and pleasant to shoot. Also punches one big hole at 50 meters with 4 shots.

mickey. Thanks for the reply, sounds like real nice rifles. Seems everyone who has a 2 3/4" 577 Nitro really likes it. Hmmmm. Would like to hear more info from other 577 Nitro shooters.