Echols and Co. produces on average 12 Legends per year, and 2 Classics. Echols also does a limited amount of functional upgrade work on pre-64 Model 70's and select Mauser 98s.

Brian

Been a awhile since an auto mechanic only charged $40.00 an hour.
I think the dealers around here charge $95.00.
And this is the deep south. Any deeper and I'd be swiming to work.

Opinions and tastes vary and all gun makers are free to charge what they feel their products are worth. The buyers decide who makes the best product and where to spend their money.
There are an awful lot of talented wood and metal smiths out there scratching for a living while top builders like D'Arcy Echols and David Miller are back ordered. Go figure.
I have a number of clients who own their rifles and virtually all own more than one. They really are the best that money can buy.

Well Brian beat me to it, but as a former employee about 12 legends a year is the goal.

So 13 would be really good.

Do you have any idea about overhead, employee costs, etc? You think your supposed figure of $40*300 hr just all goes into D'Arcy's pocket? Did you factor countless trips to the range, shooting components. You might add all that stuff in to.

Let me speak to this piece together business. While there are a plethora of smiths who pretty much just take an action, screw on a barrel and stock, call it good and charge you $1499. That ain't the case with these rifles.

I thought that was a pretty good price for that .416rem. I wouldn't sell my Legend for anything and mine has considerably more ...uh character.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralphie:
Well Brian beat me to it, but as a former employee about 12 legends a year is the goal.

So 13 would be really good.

Do you have any idea about overhead, employee costs, etc? You think your supposed figure of $40*300 hr just all goes into D'Arcy's pocket? Did you factor countless trips to the range, shooting components. You might add all that stuff in to.

Let me speak to this piece together business. While there are a plethora of smiths who pretty much just take an action, screw on a barrel and stock, call it good and charge you $1499. That ain't the case with these rifles.

I thought that was a pretty good price for that .416rem. I wouldn't sell my Legend for anything and mine has considerably more ...uh character.

If that is the acutal production it would be a reasonable price given the hours of work. I guess what many would consider, is it worth the price for a composite stocked rifle?

The value of an object is always in the eye of the beholder. There are many trade-offs one would consider but it all boils down to what you want and what you will pay for it...Hey if a syn. stocked rifle built to your specs. is worth it, then the price seems reasonable. My own personal choice would be a bit different.

I guess I do not see the utility, in that much money for a syn. stock rifle, when I can purchase from other very highly regard gunsmiths a rifle that functions and is a work of art....but to each his own...

I have a friend that has a "best quality" 375H&H rifle on a Mauser Obendorf action. It's a real Holland & Holland, made in London. He paid 35K for it used. He thinks it great. I do too, it's a very nice rifle.

I like my Legend better.

Everything about it is outstanding - the stock cast, the Burgess Bottom metal, the feeding, the scope mount, the balance, etc. It's a natural pointer, and I've got total confidence in it. I have several rifles, but always seem to choose it when I hunt. I had to wait a while for D'Arcy to start making them in LH. Was it worth the wait? Oh yeah. Is it worth the money? To me it is - I will never sell it. (and it's better made and has more quality than my friend's H&H)

IMO, when one gets to this level of overall quality the buyer knows whether or not he wants a work of art...or a rifle he can use in any climate or any condition and it will perform w/o a single hiccup. A previous poster mentioned paying a Bentley price for a slightly dressed up Ford. The Legend rifle is more a slightly dressed up military grade Hummmer, it's all business and built to take it. Looking pretty isn't in it's job description.

Just set up shop, build a rifle to the same detail and spec, build a similar reputation, and then tell us what one needs to charge to survive.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Mr Wiebe makes Bentleys, Mr. Hagn makes Bentleys. Hartmann & Weiss make Bentleys. Plastic rifles are not Bentleys.

What I don't understand is why people would pay Bentley money for a slightly dressed up Ford.

Absolutely!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Mr Wiebe makes Bentleys, Mr. Hagn makes Bentleys. Hartmann & Weiss make Bentleys. Plastic rifles are not Bentleys.

What I don't understand is why people would pay Bentley money for a slightly dressed up Ford.

Absolutely!

This comment about Bentley and dressed up Ford shows ignorance about custom rifles.

Most custom rifles will start as a Mauser or M70 as the basis. Depending on the gunsmith at some point the barreled action is a complete unit. Then you have the stock.

You could take an "out of the box" M70 to a gunsmith who could make a beautiful stock for it but underneath would be a standard M70 barreled action. Another gunsmith might rebarrel with a match grade and do a nice bluing job.

Basically, Echols refines the M70 to the highest level then you have a choice of fibreglass or wood stock and obviously the latter costs far more.

Hartmann & Weiss. Quite some time ago there was thread here where somebody was getting Echols to do a 505 Gibbs on a new H&W action. The customer posted some progress photos which included the alterations and refinements Echols was doing to the H&W action.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Mr Wiebe makes Bentleys, Mr. Hagn makes Bentleys. Hartmann & Weiss make Bentleys. Plastic rifles are not Bentleys.

What I don't understand is why people would pay Bentley money for a slightly dressed up Ford.

Absolutely!

For those of you who do not understand rifles and insist on using the automobile analogy Mr Echols makes Formula One racers - which cost alot more, to say nothing about out performing, highly polished and pimped out rides.

I'll post a few photos below that give you a little example of what they do.

Echols aluminum pillar bedding block for center of M-70 McMillan stock. You don't find these on drop-in tupperware stock - or get them installed by your local gunplumber either

On right is correctly dimensioned, thicker and hardened Echols magazine box and machined follower for pre-64 M-70 - that will never become battered or deformed from using solids - and on left is stamped factory box and follower that is usually ( but not always) close in dimensions but will eventually deform if used a lot or with solids.

"Cheap" Echols scope mounts and peep sight that are individually mated to a specific rifle

This, and the above photos, show only a few of the details that Echols and Co do for every rifle that leaves their shop. Receivers, Triggers, extractors and ejectors, all pins and springs, barrel and bolt receive an equal amount of work.
And all of it takes time and skill.

Phil,

Those photos are very telling about goes into the production of an Echols Legend. All to often we as gun owners forget that a gunmaker has to recoup considerable tooling, fixture and design costs in addition to basic overhead, salary and perhaps a razor thin profit margin. Adding the cost of an action, a barrel and stock and is an oversimplification of what any top gunmaker invests into their end product weather it is Echols, Weibe, Miller or Heilmann... And producing parts on a toolroom basis, such as Echols or Millers scope mounting system, is not a formula for high output low cost manufacturing that equals low price widgets. In my opinion part of what you get when you purchase an Echols or Miller rifle is their uncompromising vision as to what a rifle should be. Enough riflemen agree with this vision to have them backlogged to the point that the price of admission incrementally gets higher and higher. I don't own and Echols rifle but certainly can appreciate the rifles he produces.

David, You are right and I only use Echols as I am the most familiar with his work but as you say, David Miller, Duane Weibe and Steve Heilmann also do impeccable work as well.
I don't own a rifle by any of them either but am fascinated by what such talented rifle smiths can produce. The are all raising the bar for bolt rifle in what English makers refer to as "best guns"

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
I guess I do not see the utility, in that much money for a syn. stock rifle, when I can purchase from other very highly regard gunsmiths a rifle that functions and is a work of art....but to each his own...

I have rifles on both sides of this argument. And there is no debate, at all. If you're a gun collector, you go one way, if you're a hunter, you go the other way.

Those works of art do NOT even remotely come close to the function of the better gunbuilders. It's one thing to make metal look pretty and another to make a flawlessly feeding and accurately shooting rifle. I'll take function over form and 1/4 in groups any day over a pretty rifle that comes with excuses.....and there is no difference in the fit/finish, just no frills. As I said I got em both.

Those works of art are nothing more than dressed up/reskinned M 70s/98s (Fords). The Miller, Echols, Sisk, Holehan etc are true purpose built rifles (Ferrari/Aston Martin/Lamborghini)built from the bottom up.

That is the major difference, so put your $ where you want to; you do get what you pay for. Depends if you wanna pay for looks or function.

PS when I see a rifle all "presidentialed" up with the octagonal/integral/machined this/that I chuckle inside cause I know it ain't gonna shoot worth a shit

quote:

Mr Wiebe makes Bentleys, Mr. Hagn makes Bentleys. Hartmann & Weiss make Bentleys. Plastic rifles are not Bentleys. ..

The Martini-Hagn shop also offers high grade syn. rifles.

An H&W Mauser[scopeless & mountless] expect $25k upward..., far from the $14K for an syn. Legend with proprietary custom scope rings.
... an walnut Echols m70 is what $20k?, If you want an Echols[H&W receiver] based rifle, just pay the extra and its yours.... all seems relative.

Bentley incorporates "Edge" technology In their Continental ss..

"Carbon ceramic brakes are standard fitment, benefiting steering response, grip and ride comfort, while saving weight. Overall, the engineering team have achieved a weight reduction of 110 kg (243 lb) compared with the Continental GT Speed. The evolution of the Supersports’ design is very much a case of ‘form following function’ with new purposeful sculptural forms signalling the engineering changes beneath the skin. The Supersports is further distinguished from its Continental coupe stable,by A complex ‘Physical Vapour Deposition’ process. A car industry first, this process is normally used as a coating on industrial tools, watches and even hip replacement joints... The cockpit represents a dramatic re-interpretation of Bentley interior design in which carbon fibre and AlcantaraTM not only convey a sporting and contemporary style but also reduce weight. The Supersports is a strict two-seater featuring all-new lightweight sports seats with carbon fibre clamshell rear panels. In the rear compartment, the seats are replaced by a stowage deck with a carbon fibre luggage retaining beam."

Does the Legend stock with alluminium bedding block, come direct from Mcmillan like that?

The CZ Kevlar for 550 Magnum stock
and
the Winchester Extreme Weather SS M70 stock
or
any of the Bell&Carlson top-of-the-line stocks come with that sort of aluminum bedding block.
It is getting to be run-of-the-mill nowadays.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
David, You are right and I only use Echols as I am the most familiar with his work but as you say, David Miller, Duane Weibe and Steve Heilmann also do impeccable work as well.
I don't own a rifle by any of them either but am fascinated by what such talented rifle smiths can produce. The are all raising the bar for bolt rifle in what English makers refer to as "best guns"

Let's not leave out Ryan Breeding whom apprenticed under the great Gil VanHorn

quote:

The Ryan Breeding Rifle
is the culmination of my long association with noted Riflemaker and African Hunter, Gil Van Horn. This combined effort totals over 70 years experience in methods and design innovations, which guarantees the finest and most dependable Safari rifles available today.

http://www.rbbigbores.com/

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The CZ Kevlar for 550 Magnum stock
and
the Winchester Extreme Weather SS M70 stock
or
any of the Bell&Carlson top-of-the-line stocks come with that sort of aluminum bedding block.
It is getting to be run-of-the-mill nowadays.

RIP, are you saying that CZ, Winchester and B&C dovetail into each stock pillars that are machined exactly to fit your individual action and bottom metal?

Oh yeah!
The pillars are integral to the aluminum endoskeleton that surrounds the box and goes from distal butt to distalforend, almost to the tip.
Might even be better than Echols' if he is not putting that skeleton into the buttstock and forend.
Obviously no metal in the stock magazine well walls in your photo.
Just some fancy pillars?

So if they are integral with the stock they must be one-size-fits-all drop in stocks ? And they shoot as well as individually bedded stocks?

Hey Man,
You would be my top pick when I decide to blow some of the kid's inheritance for griz or brown bear.
More appealing than Africa to me.

I have had 0.75 MOA for 3 shots with just drop-in.
If not good enough, a little dab of epoxy in 2 spots makes them a perfect fit.
Voila.
Ain't nuthin' special about that Echols stock.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


Let's not leave out Ryan Breeding whom apprenticed under the great Gil VanHorn

quote:

The Ryan Breeding Rifle
is the culmination of my long association with noted Riflemaker and African Hunter, Gil Van Horn. This combined effort totals over 70 years experience in methods and design innovations, which guarantees the finest and most dependable Safari rifles available today.

http://www.rbbigbores.com/

And I think Gil VanHorn was a gunsmith at Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


Let's not leave out Ryan Breeding whom apprenticed under the great Gil VanHorn

quote:

The Ryan Breeding Rifle
is the culmination of my long association with noted Riflemaker and African Hunter, Gil Van Horn. This combined effort totals over 70 years experience in methods and design innovations, which guarantees the finest and most dependable Safari rifles available today.

http://www.rbbigbores.com/

And I think Gil VanHorn was a gunsmith at Weatherby.

Very good, yes you are correct
In the very early years when Roy was just getting started. Gil went on to be a very prolific high end safari rifle maker with a whole line of VanHorn cartridges. D'Arcy Echols, even has a few home made videos that Gil sent him show how Gil did certain things

Im surprised, how the powdered nose rifle critics has not yet said how "ugly" those scope rings are!,...