The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores The faster the solid, the less it penetrates???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I just read a statement by Garrett Cartridge Co. Stating that 45-70 will out penetrate a 458 win, which will out penetrate a 458 Lott, which will out penetrate a 460 Wheatherby. I find this preposterous. The author of the article states that Hornady solids were used in the comparative alalysis. I believe that old Capstick mentioned that the 458 win out penetrated the 460 Wheatherby on elephant when both used Hornady solids. I think this phenomenon has to do with the Hornady bullets increased propensity to deform as impact speeds increase. What do you think the answer could be? The 45-70 is great in its place but a Buff gun it is not, at least not when my skin is at risk. The article can be read at: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp ---Catter | ||
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The possibility of riveting? Dunno, could also have something to do with the increased speed making the bullet deflect off big bones as opposed to breaking through. Disclaimer: ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Pure speculation on my part. | |||
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Hi Wildcatter, Go to my web page on page 8 of Comparing the Big Bores and you can see with the same bullet in any caliber the faster the bullet is driven the deeper the penetration with the same sectional density and shape. I've heard this about the slow bullets and I'm going to try some penetration testing to see the results for myself. I'll have to figure out how to down load the bullets enough to get into the 1300 fps range without having a problem. I don't think caliber should matter if all else is equal. When you look at the charts make sure that you compare the same bullets. Don't go by the 450 Ackley results with the 500 grain Hornady because the nose shape is different than the others. You can compare the 470 Nitro results with the 470 Mbogo results using the Barnes solids or the 500 Nitro results with the 500 A-Square using the Barnes bullets. I posted some photos that I took shooting bullets into Yellow Cedar blocks with a 45-70 hard cast bullet and the penetration results as well as the channels produced by each bullet. The cast bullet did penetrate well but we also shot the same blocks with a 44 mag with a bullet that didn't open up and it penetrated just as far as the 45-70 cast bullet. It was a hot 44 mag load. The Yellow Cedar was very consistent amd I'm wondering if it would be better than plywood stacked. Take good care, Dave | |||
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Jack O'Connor once stated that he saw deeper penetration of a 7X57 on elk than a 7MM Rem Mag. With solids this may be stretched a bit.....I have no data to prove elsewise. I've been told my many experienced people to load down my .375 H&H loads to 2,400'/sec for best penetration....(I wonder what they tell the guy with a .378 Weatherby)... My personal experience with smaller bullets and calibers is that there's a (roughly) right velocity for maximum performnance of a particular bullet in a particular rifle and that too much velocity can be counter productive. Until I have personal experience with the specific conditions, I'll listen to the guys that have been there and done that....... | |||
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Hi Vapodog, Keep in mind the bullets available in Jack O'Connors day and how fast the 7mm mag was for those bullets. It probably turned them inside out in the first 5 inches of penetration. Bullets these days don't do that. The extra velocity gives you flatter trajectory which gains you 100 yards in point blank aiming. That's also why the question is about solids. I'm as curious as anyone about this theory and just have to see it for myself before I'll believe it. Take good care, Dave | |||
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quote:Gee, I wonder why it took 150 years to figure this out? All the screwing around with steel and copper and bronze and all of this and now we find out that the old 500/450 BP Express was the best thing in the entire world for penitration. Will wonders never cease. All Selous, Banks or Sutherland really needed was a 45-90 or 50-110 in a model 86. [ 11-30-2003, 06:11: Message edited by: Mickey1 ] | |||
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It would only seem reasonable that a company that makes only hard cast heavy-for-caliber lead bulleted loads for relatively slow moving low pressure calibers for handguns and lever actions would try and sell their wares. Some think that going after dangerous game so armed is a resonable prospect. In a perfect situation it may be feasable to attempt. That being said I would sooner carry a 7x57 mauser with steel jacketed solids than a hard cast anything loaded in a 45-70 against something that bites back. All I was saying is that the physics are obviously skewed in this claim. Maybe 470Mbogo can do some further testing to to prove which case is in fact reality. I have a bunch of Bridger 416 400 grn solids that I could push to increasing velocities in an attempt to understand what is occuring with penetration. Would pushing these bullets to 1500, 2000, then 2500 fps tell us something? I simply want to find the facts not simply base my pilosophies on a company's claims. Weatherby is a reputable company that has been around far longer than Garrett cartridge Co. and we are all familiar with the sensational claims Roy made to sell his rifles and cartridges. By the way, read the article. This question has only to do with solid, non-expanding projectiles. There are simply too many variables to try and consider this question pertaining to soft points. Thanks for all the input ---Catter | |||
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Garrett's tests were on wet newspaper. | |||
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How DOES one make a 400 grain solid go only 1500fps in a 416 Remington? A case full of blackpowder? Kidding. These are the powders I have right now. RL-15, Accurate 2015, Varget, RL-22, Accurate #9, PowerPistol, American Select, Bullseye, Pyrodex RS. I'm only going to shoot one at each velocity. The test media will be stacked Hardi Board. I think a load can be devised with the RL-22 to attain 2000fps. | |||
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From an engineering point of view, all I can think is Boundary Layer Separation and Wake Formation. Similar to the Kursk torpedoes and the Super Penetrator bullets doing better AT PENETRATING DENSE MEDIA (water or flesh) with the flat disk nose. My thought - the faster bullet travels at speeds high enough to be considered turbulent flow. BL separation occurs, as does wake formation, and this results in increased energy depletion of the bullet. Similar to fluidization, where a high enough gas stream velocity can make solids "float on air", this bouyancy effect causes drag on the bullet. The slower bullet, however, is less subject to this, or if slow enough, remains practically in the laminar region. Less speed, less wake, less drag? There will be an optimum of forward velocity where the maximum penetration is achieved, below that and the friction of the media will become overriding and cause rapid deceleration. That, or it is similar to the weapons and armor used in Dune ;o) | |||
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I dunno what old Garret's been smoking but on California Red Oak logs a 458 win at 2150fps with Hornady solids will not out penetrate a 450 ackley at 2385 fps with the same Hornady 500 gr solids.It's always about 8-12 inches behind. Furthermore, the most penetration I've ever seen was from a 1000 gr brass .710 ( FLAT NOSE) Bridger solid at 2400 fps. That thing went through 6 FT of solid OAK. Nothing else has ever and I mean ever come close and I've tried!-Rob | |||
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Alf is correct about the newspaper issue. I tried wet newspaper and had bullets leaving the medium within 16 inches. The deflection is unbelievable. The other thing that isn't considered is that Garrett is using a 540 grain bullet in the 45-70 which has a very high sectional density of .3675 compared to the 500 at .341. The flat nosed 540 grain bullet has to be shot in both guns at both velocities into the same test medium to actually compare them. Take care, Dave [ 11-30-2003, 10:53: Message edited by: 470 Mbogo ] | |||
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quote:Has anyone compared the Holtzman Effect on monolithic solids vs. conventional bullets fired from maula pistols? | |||
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Well when you guys, and Garrette get it figured out, let me know! Till then, and my guess is,after that as well, my 45-70s will shoot no bullet heavier than 480 gr, and most with 400 gr, and will be used on nothing bigger, or tougher than a Bear, unless I encounter something bigger, and have nothing else in my hands! ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} This horse has already been beaten to death! [ 11-30-2003, 22:29: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
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Just read one of Bakers excerpts.He stopped an enraged cow elephant with a lead slug from a 10 bore and said "it was the only time he was able to take a member of the african variety with a frontal shot".All other attempts failed, and thus he considered them generally 'invulnerable' from this angle. I can only assume he included his 4bore/ounce rifle(whatever calibre it really was) for the above. Now that used a slug of fair sectional density- must have been over .250 or so. Karl. | |||
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Rob, Do you think a 600/BMG with the blunt bullets for 600nitro would provide similar penetration as the flatpoint 700 bullets? Karl. | |||
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The resistance encountered by a solid bullet entering fluid is an expoential function of the velocity. In most applications between the square and the cube of velocity. This is why a person jumping off a 200 foot high bridge will not go as deep as one jumping from a 30 foot pylon. Of course, the high jumper makes a hell of a big splash and the faster bullet does more tissue damage. | |||
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From everything I have seen, a truly non-deforming solid will nearly always increase penetration with velocity. However, if the impact causes the bullet to deform (even slightly) penetration is reduced. Penetration depends on weight, shape, and velocity. Change any of these and penetration will change as well. Therefore, the only meaningful comparison is to use the exact same bullet at a range of speeds. Also, note that pointed solids (military ball) ammunition always tumbles during penetration, and often fragment as well. This is why 5.56mm military weapons are not good to be hit by - they cause wounds almost as nasty as a hollow point. Bullets with a flat or round-nosed shape generally don't tumble if spun fast enough, and they usually are by standard velocity and twist rates. Beware of loading too light and testing penetration for signs of tumbling, which will skew the results. Also, load any bullet too hot and it will deform on impact, even if it is made of solid steel. Even slight deformation will reduce penetration. Take a look at http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere1/methods.html for more on terminal ballistics topics. The site author seems to have really done his homework on the subject. | |||
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I strongly suspect that 470MBOGO is going to do the 460WBY penetration experiment where using the same gun with the same bullets(flat nose and round nose solids would be good) and SAME TWIST RATE at velocities from 1500fps to 2600 fps one compares penetration results in a tough/consistent medium like oak or cedar logs. Any one want to bet on the results? My bet is Mo Velocity equals mo penetration till the bullet itself deforms. After that point additional velocity will not result in significantly mo penetration. Duh!-Rob [ 12-02-2003, 09:32: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ] | |||
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HI Rob, It will be with the 470 Mbogo loaded to 1500 fps, 2150 fps and 2400 with the 540 Bridger solids shot into plywood and hopefully a series of water filled milk jugs. I'm going to video the entire thing and put it up on the site. It should set things straight but there will always be doubters. Take care, Daave | |||
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quote:If that were true, then the old .458 ammo which only generated 1700 to 1800 fps would have been a great penetrator. But it was a failure. The new 458 win ammo at 2100 fps is a far better performer. And the 458 lott at 2300 fps is far better still. The data on the 460 weatherby seems to go both ways. Garrett is just publishing more marketing B.S. If what he said is true, then we would all hunt elephant with a 45 Long Colt. Note that on the hunting stories part of Garrett's website, there is a hunting story from a guy named Vince who shot 6 head of dangerous game with Garrett ammo and was charged by 5 of them. Sounds to me like the ammo is not doing its job. | |||
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In therory, one might assume the faster a solid bullet goes, the less it penitrates as it creates its own resistence...However in all the test I have run it is quite the opposite..A 460 Wby with a solid that has Parrell sides and a flat nose will penitrate till hell freezes over, and I doubt that Garret will challange that... Garret makes more claims than a horny widow women, and he or his followers spread untruths and half truths like wildfire..This Garret solid hype is a little too much any way you cut and anyone that falls for this gobbleygoop is not testing those claims, and a fool and his money are soon parted... He has a good product but I will stay away from it just because of the hype...Let it stand on its own two legs and drop the california marketing spread and I might someday give it a try...but in effect I already have, many years before his coming on the scene... | |||
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This is the same reason that the military is changing from APFSDSDU to wrist rocket sling shots and 3/8" ball bearings for anti-tank duty. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} Scott | |||
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Here is chapeter and verse from the Garrett Bible: quote: [ 12-04-2003, 04:07: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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Lets give the man the beneft of the doubt. Maybe he see's about as well as I do when up close and mixed up the bullet holes. Take care, Dave | |||
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Horse feathers! | |||
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470MBOGO- I may do a similar test on oak logs with my 460WBY or a 450ACKLEY. I have some 500 gr Bridgers that look like brass cylinders. I hope that I have enough oak to stop them at 1500 fps. I know that at 1000fps they would go through the mountain behind my backstop, so I'LL BE CAREFULL TO NOT SLOW THEM DOWN TOO MUCH. Please don't slow your 470MBOGO down too much either.-Rob | |||
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quote:Baker's "big bore" was a 2-ga, from which he preferred to fire 1/2-pound round balls, although he even had some exploding "shells" for it (conicals of some sort.) However, Baker considered the round ball to be the preferred projectile type for shooting dangerous game with big caliber black powder muzzleloading rifles. I do not recall his ever commenting on the relative penetration of the RB vs a conical bullet of any sort. He may have, but I have not seen such comments from him. | ||
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quote:It is generally accepted that round balls don't penetrate worth spit. If they did, then shotgun slugs would just be round balls. In fact it would be much simpler if all of our bullets were round balls. But the sectional density of a round ball is low and when they deform they veer off path. | |||
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