The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores FLAT NOSE SOLIDS - Are you convinced?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
Alf, The theories you have posted are only marginally relevant as they do not address the specific bullets in question. 465, I have noted no difference in the effect on cutting through bone between RN and FN. FN do penetrate a bit deeper in bone. Barnes RN seem to penetrate a bit shallower in bone. This is not an issue for side brain shots on elephants. For a frontal brain when the ele has his head held back and you have to go through a few feet of trunk, a FN has the advantage. | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| One of Us |
marginally relevant because it deals with pointed solids only, not a comparison of FN vs RN | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf@ You really need to go shoot a few elephants with frontal brain shots. The distance the bullet has to travel to reach the brain from the front can vary considerably depending on the how tall he is, how high he is carrying his head and whether he is standing above you. Feet of penetration are definately necessary on some of these shots. In the worse case scenario the bullet may have to enter well below where the tusks come out of the face. 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| one of us |
Alf, Your right I have no scientific bases..I have experience using them and the many conversations with Johan Calitz, who has shot a lot of elephant, buffalo and most everything else with them for better than 10 years...I will accept my opinnion based on that over all the scientific bases BS that you can come up with..Paper balistics and BS leave me cold in the hunting world...observation suits me better..You go your route and I will go mine. 465, I have no idea what a cup point will do on a frontal brain shot, and probably never will try it...Yes a flat nose solid will do more internal damage to flesh or bone than a round nose IMO, as Gerard said, we have known that for ions, anyone who has shot game with a pistol prior to jacketed hollow points knows that we had only three basic types of bullets, the wadcutter, simi wadcutter and round nose and the round nose got many a police officer gunned down and many a crook escaped wounded with vital hits...I observed this on several ocassions... Based on the above I started using flat nose rifle solids before it was even a notion, I fought all the ammo companies to produce them but to no avail, they also said I had no scientific proof...Finally one company made me some special bullets but all they did was trim the noses off a monolithic RN, and I couldn't see a lot of difference..Then GS Custom showed up and the world of dangerous game hunting changed altogather, the FN solids worked great and others with bullet expertise jumped on that band wagon and today we have GS Customs, Northfork, Bridger, and a couple of companies with their own idea of a flat nose, but the one that works pretty much cloned what Elmer Keith showed us a century ago, a simi wadcutter design, then the cup point from Northfork showed up after a lot of conversation with Mike and my telling him my ideas on what was needed for shooting buffalo he came up with a design that would do just what I wanted..He sent me batch of them in several calibers and I shot a bunch of buffalo with them and sent him the fill out forms, boy did the cup point work and I mean in spades, a world of penetration and a tad of expansion, even worked on plainsgame.....end of story. Yes, the FN solids do kill better than a RN solid and that immediatly becomes obvious to anyone that has actually used them... But like Alf says, I don't have any scientific bases... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf, Related to your last post and the velocity window, I noted: a. greatest penetration on average with .500 NE FN bullets at 2150 fps b. second best penetration on average with .470 capstick FN bullets at 2300 fps c. worst penetration on average with .375 H&H FN bullets at 2550 fps. Could this be attribtued to meplat size? That is what I have attributed it to (larger meplat - greater penetration). Or could it be attributed to velocity window? Perhaps 2300 fps was pushing the window, and 2500 fps was outside of the window. I do not know. | |||
|
| One of Us |
REMINDER: The sample space is not large enough for statistical reliability. | |||
|
| one of us |
Actually the new Barnes Banded Solids are called Flat Nosed Solids. The thing I like about them is they have toe same POI out to 150 yards as their TSX bullets of the same weight. Lawdog  | |||
|
| One of Us |
The flat part of the new Barnes solid does not provide a very wide meplat. I will be interested in any test results comparing them to wide meplat bullets like the Bridger. | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf, The field data, while not statistically reliable, is more useful to a scientific theory which does not even comport with the field data. Show me a theory that explains what I see in wound channels, and I will be moved. | |||
|
one of us |
I have done considerable testing on everything from whale carcases to 12 foot thick racks of sheet rock and from my experiences flat nosed solids fired from identical rifles using indentical loads only with different shaped bullets the flat nosed ones penetrate straighter and appear to cause more damage but do not penetrate as far. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf, But the scientific theory is ONLY USEFUL if it explains the empirical data. As for debridement, I am glad I did not get shot in the '70's or '80's. Of all the times to get shot, this is probably the best time so far.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's EXACTLY what I've been trying to say, without the actual experience of working with anything but a hacksaw, and bullet casting... Part of the problem here is the design of the flat nosed bullets lack consistency. Bridger's do NOT look like Keith's. I think we need to be a bit more specific on each type of bullet, and perhaps then we could bring Phil Shoemaker's comments into consistency with others. I suspect no wadcutter is going to penetrate as well as a round nose, unless it's either faster, or heavier. Perhaps the wider metplat bullets add weight, and that extra weight gives either more, or equal penetration to a round nose, of similar weight. Where is Norbert when you need him? ;-) Looking at all these new bullets, it REALLY looks like someone should test one against the other, and perhaps then, we might get a consistent idea of which design works best, at what velocity, in what construction, and material. Complex problem? You bet. I've gone through reams of information on bullet casting, trying to achieve these very ends with cast bullets. Why do we think over night, the new companies are going to produce flawlessly designed, flatnosed solids??? At this point, it looks like Gerard's bullets are the best researched, and, of course, unobtainable for anyone but Ray to use   G | |||
|
| one of us |
Hello Bent  .Have you done so in the meantime? What have been your results? Thanks, Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
|
One of Us |
Yea, right! I am a full time gunsmith. Off time I am building a custom gun for my godsons 14th birth-day, a canon for his fathers 40th birthday, so I guess my '68 will be done some time during 2007! But, thanks for asking! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
One of Us |
For those of you who get all scientific about it. Science doesnt have to prove everything to me. Some things you can prove with your own 2 eyes and a little common sense. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
|
| One of Us |
I totally agree. Theory is fine, but what matters is what we see in the field. And that is what has convinced me that some theories are not correct.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with that. but I would also bet that not all things are fact that Science would have us to believe are fact. Take eggs for example one week they are bad for you and the next they are good for you. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Alf, Do you now agree that flat nose solids can (and DO) create permanent wound channels that are larger than bullet diameter? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Do you know if anyone has studied whether wadcutters penetrate deeper than semi-wadcutters or frusto-conical bullets of the same material, weight and velocity? | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| one of us |
I think the flat nose pushes the cavitating bubble ahead of the bullet. The bullet is now traveling through less dense tissue. Dave | |||
|
| one of us |
Comparing FN solids to RN solids all else being equal you must look at the differences between them "ballistically". The size of the meplat is important for two reasons. 1.The larger the meplant the greater the resistance. 2. The more the bullet resembles a cylinder the less the "overtuning moment" of the bullet. This is why FMJ spitzers wobble and turn base foward, the heavier base "overtakes" the lighter nose. This is why Foster shotgun slugs are hollow base, to have more weight foward. Look at the German TUG bullet, the base part of the "penetrator is tapered, just like the front part of the penetrator, this makes the rear "penetrator" part of bullet stable and lessens any tendenct to "overturn" The reason the early 470 penetrated less than other nitro expressess is that their bullets were more sharply "pointed" thus they had a tendency to "overturn", causing badly fishtailed bases. From my 450 No2, I have fired 3 Woodleigh 480 Solids in to the heads of live elephants, and one 450 North Fork Solid into the head of a live elephant. The North fork elephant was bigger in body and head size than the others. The NF Solid penetrated much further out of the head back into the body than the Woodleighs. Not a valid scientific number of shots, but real world experience none the less. Think about big bore revolver shooters, when we want lots of penetration we go to a large meplat heavy bullet. It has been proven they penetrate even better than a Kieth SWC. Why, less of a tendency to "overturn". As a FN bullet does not try to "overturn" ie yaw, penetration friction is less. As a bonus the flat nose makes a better wound channel. That is my theory. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not so. Use of FN solids in the field shows the permanent wound channel to be larger than bore diameter.
Your 'credible sources' cannot convince me that what my eyes have seen is mere hallucination. In fact, they are not so credible since they appear to be ignorant of the performance of FN solids. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores FLAT NOSE SOLIDS - Are you convinced?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
