I just bought a RSM in 416 Rigby at an auction. It's one of the older models with the front sling stud through the forearm. I was planning on working up loads with the Barnes 400 Gr. TSX for use on Dagga Boys and the 400 Gr. Banded solids for PAC Ele's. The goal is to get them both to shoot as close to the same POI as possible. That's why I wanted to stick with the same manufacturer bullet and weight.

Recently, I've been reading some internet posts that the twist in 416 Rigby's is a little slow for these longer monolithic bullets which causes some them to tumble when striking game. Anyone know if this is just bull or the truth? According to the Ruger website this rifle has a 1 in 14 twist. I know I could easily drop down to the 350 Gr. version of these bullets for the Buff, but I want to stick with the heavier 400 Gr. solids for Ele's.

BTW - After reading tales of elephant hunting from Jorge and others on this site, I finally took the plunge with a PAC hunt (the only kind I can afford) this past May. Shot a bull (used the PH's 458 Winnie) on a hunt booked through Russ Gould and now I'm hopelessly addicted. See what you guys have done to me.

quote:

loads with the Barnes 400 Gr. TSX for use on Dagga Boys and the 400 Gr. Banded solids for PAC Ele's

I think those bullets should shoot fine and do a good job for you. But you might want to try the North Fork solids and softs too.

The Barnes bullets are a little under-sized too, usually.

You would be much better off with the 370-grain North Fork FP banded solid or the 380-grain GSC FN banded solid for elephant penetration.

I would not trust the pseudo-banded, ogived-flat-nose, undersized Barnes "Banded Solid" made of brass (longer for weight or lighter for length).


NF FP
or
GSC FN
both
WAY Better.

North Fork also makes their excellent 370-grain grooved soft and a banded CUP POINT "soft" in the same weight as the FP solid.

I used a .416 Rigby RSM with the 380-grain GSC FN solid to kill a cape buffalo with one shot. Yes, a complete pass through the humerus then heart then out the other side.

The GSC FN .416/380-grain also shot a sub-0.2" 3-shot group at 100 yards, and gave 2509 fps with 105.0 grains of H4831 Extreme (long cut).

SO WHICH CAN YOU GET IN YOUR HANDS FIRST?

GSC or Northfork?

RIP gave good advice....Gerald from GS Custum warns against useing the longer Mono Metal bullets in conventional twist rifles,because of marginal stability and the chance of the bullet tumbling in game.Randy Brooks owner of Barnes Rem that he shoots... I would use the 350 grain Banded Solid if going the Barnes route....... A poster in the African section on 24 hour camp fire used the Federal factory loaded 400 Barnes solid on a recant hunt in Africa and had a tumbleing issue on one of the animals that he took......

Thanks guys, looks like I'll give up on the Barnes idea. I too read the post about the TSX tumbling inside the buff. That's what prompted this post. I've used Northforks in my 375 H&H with good results so I'll probably go that route, but I sure wish they made a 400 Gr. solid to use on Ele's. Anyone have any experience with their flat nose solids? Don't think I'd use the cup point on an Ele.

I've also heard of GS custom and all the problems they had in the past filling orders. Has this situation been rectified. Is there a distributior in the US with the bullets in stock?

Tom. Although I have a 416 Rigby, I haven't used it in Africa. I do have a 416 Wby and could share some disheartening stories of what happens when you fire bullets designed for 2400fps at 2700fps. You may be tempted to "hot load" this bullet (if 2400fps is good, then 2600fps should be great!) Even if your rifle was new and you were sure it could handle modern pressures, I would not.

One of the nice things about the Rigby at 2400fps is that you have a whole host of bullets to choose from. Woodleighs are good, both soft and solid. If you don't push the velocity, you can even use Hornadys (may God forgive me for endorsing Hornady.)

My personal favorite solid is Gerard's. I use it in my 450 Dakota at 2400fps and it has worked great in buffalo and elephant. That being said, there are a number of good bullets. If you have access to a variety, see which ones shoot well in your gun.

I recommend using slower powders that will fill the case. I have seen bullets jammed down in the case until stopped by the powder column, with potentially bad results. Ideally, the powder should fill the case or be mildly compressed.

You'll find the Rigby round just great for both buffalo and elephant. Good luck and enjoy!

quote:

I've used Northforks in my 375 H&H with good results so I'll probably go that route, but I sure wish they made a 400 Gr. solid to use on Ele's.

Just e-mail Mike Brady at North Fork and ask his opinion. He is a straight-up guy and will give you an honest solid opinion.

Yet another gent on another forum recently reported erratic performance with Federal, factory loaded with 400gr TSXs. Ninety degree turns on buffalo (hit the shoulder and turned right into the guts, taking only one lung and requiring a long follow up) and the same thing on a wildebeest. I think conventional wisdom dictates the 350TSX (shorter) in the 416s and 450s in the 45s. Randy Brooks of Barnes really likes the 350 for buf BTW. jorge

Jorge & JohnDL - I read that post over on 24HR as well. That's what got me questioning the Barnes bullets. 2400 fps is the velocity I plan achieve. Looks like H4831 or H4350 should be good starting points. As for Hornady bullets - I've been killing deer with them for a long time and they always work. However, when I head across the pond I use Nosler Partitions for plains game and the Northfork 300 in my 375 for Buff.

Picking a buff bullet shouldn't be a problem for the Rigby however the solid for elephants could be more difficult since I'm trying to get the same POI with both, or as close as possible. That's why I'm trying to stick with the same weight for both. Anyone had a good experience with 416 solids on ele's? Especialy would be interested in hearing reports of Northfork solids. I've spoken to Mike from Northfork in the past so I think I'll give him a call as well.

Thanks again for all the help.

I just went to
www.custombrassandbullets.com
and saw 2 boxes of the .416/380gr FN in stock.
So I ordered them. They were $85.00 for box of 50, on sale for some strange reason. Something like $8 discount per box. Shipping for the 2 boxes was $8.80 "2-day shipping" added to the $170.00 for 2 boxes, 100 bullets.

We shall see how fast they get to me.

We must encourage GSC to make more of those, and Neal Shirley, proprietor and sole distributor for GSC in the Americas, to get more of those.

Or see Mike Brady at North Fork. It may be that North Fork availability in this caliber has cut the market for GSC's. The North Forks are just as good.

Some calibers I stick with North Forks, some calibers I stick with GSC.

.416 happens to be a GSC caliber for me. If I did not stockpile GSC's in this caliber, I would stockpile North Forks instead for it. I did not even know about North Fork when I started shooting GSC's in my .416.

GSC does make a 410-grain FN, but for what reason I do not know.

Certainly if your rifle likes them, the .416/350-grain TSX would be a good soft. But there are better choices there too.

Here's an interesting point to consider. I read the post others mentioned on 24hourcampfire.com about the problems the fellow had with the 400 gr. Barnes TSX. From his pictues it appears that he was shooting a CZ. Their catalog shows the twist rate for the 416 Rigby as 1 in 16.5, whereas in the Ruger RSM the twist is listed as 1 in 14. I'm sure the faster twist would better stabilize the long TSX, but I don't think I'll take the chance. Any thoughts on this?? You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff, but that's half the fun of reloading.

It's very likely my post in 24 Hour Campfire you are referring to. If that is the case the rifle is a CZ .416 Rigby and the ammo was a handload of 96 grains of RL22 for a chronographed velocity of 2350 fps. the bullet entered behind the shoulder for what should have been a quickly fatal shot. When it wasn't, it was obvious that something had gone wrong, but what exactly wasn't known until the gutting and later still at the skinning shed where the bullet was found in the far-side hindquarter.Due more to good luck than anything the follow-up wasn't too long or eventful. Suspense filled perhaps. Definitely puzzling. The solids that finished the job tracked perfectly. The Ph and I fired together though thick brush, hit within 3/4" of each other and the bullets exited right beside the intial entry wound. That left a 3 shot "group" on one side and a 2 shot group on the other, both measuring 3/4". I won't be using these bullets next time. I'll either drop down to 350s or switch to A-Frames.I have loads for these bullets, but had to pick one to take. It seems I chose incorrectly, but my buffalo is still dead. It isn't the first one with more than one hole in it either.I used my .375 for the rest of the trip, getting full penetration on giraffe and eland. I suspect that if I had used it on the buffalo as well I wouldn't have much of a story to tell.

Dogleg - Yes it was your post to which I was referring. Thanks for posting that info. Sure glad everything worked out in the end with your buff. Just curious - what solid did you use to finally finish off the critter? Even though I would probably be OK with the 400 Gr. TSX with the faster twist in the RSM, I'm not going to take the chance. It's just not the smart thing to do when up close and personal with a buff.

Labman,
I used the 400 grain banded solid for the follow-up shot. PH Dan Weller with African Dreams Safaris used a 400 grain Woodleigh solid in his .416 Weatherby, loaded down to Rigby specs. I'll be looking for a different solid to use as well, if I drop down to 350 grains in bullet weight. I'd feel alright with the 350 grain Banded Solid.

Dogleg. I am not clear from your post whether or not the TSX failed. Did the petals come off? Did it veer off course?

Certainly, a buffalo is a terrible thing to do to a bullet! I've seen them go for quite some distance with a huge hole through the "boiler-room." The last one I shot is an example. It was at very last light and I had a broadside shot (450 Dakota, 500gr Barnes X @ 2400fps) (this was older X bullet, not TSX) At the shot the buff hunched, then ran around in a huge circle, finally coming back to almost the exact same spot. I shot him again (GS solid) and he fell over. The first bullet had entered right behind the near shoulder, ripped off the top of the heart, and exited through the off shoulder. The d#*@mn buffalo was dead, he just didn't know it!

JohnDL,
The bullet veered of course, hitting only one lung on a broadside shot.Given the same easy shot I could have killed it with a 30-06. The bullet looks OK, retained all its petals etc. I think far too much is made of what a bullet looks like, what it does is all that matters. Next time I'll use something else.

quote:

BTW - After reading tales of elephant hunting from Jorge and others on this site, I finally took the plunge with a PAC hunt (the only kind I can afford) this past May. Shot a bull (used the PH's 458 Winnie) on a hunt booked through Russ Gould and now I'm hopelessly addicted. See what you guys have done to me.

Tom Z

Tom, you dog! I knew nothing of your trip. How but a little story and a pic or two??

Hope you're keeping well!

Cheers,
Canuck

Dogleg. Very interesting about the TSX veering off course. I certainly agree that bullet "appearance" means little. I only asked this because of stories I have heard of X bullets losing a petal and then either veering off course or tumbling. As regards bullet "appearance", I shot a lion about 10 years ago with a 416 Wby, factory load, 400 gr Swift at 2700fps. Shot at 50 yards on left shoulder such that the bullet should have raked diagonally backward through lion. At the shot, the lion jumped, went into the bush and we had to follow him up to finish him. At autopsy, the bullet had completely disintegrated the shoulder but hadn't penetrated the chest wall. We found the bullet under the skin over the right rear leg. The bullet had expanded immediately and traveled under the hide all around the animal. The bullet looked perfect and could have been used in an ad!

I don't know how much difference there is between TSX's and the older X bullet. I'm about to leave for Tanzania and will be hunting with a PH with over 40 years experience. As we both use 450 Dakotas, I reload for him (bring extra ammo and leave the rest with him.) He swears by the "old" X bullet at 2400fps. I like solids for followups. He doesn't want them. Uses X bullets for everything. Go figure! Cheers.

JohnDL,
Perhaps it all just shows that the perfect bullet has not yet been designed. It's not that I have anything again Barnes bullets, I was wearing a Barnes hat when I pulled the trigger. Still, I can't very well use that particular bullet again when I no longer believe in it. I plan to continue using them in my .375 though.

I had a nice phone conversation today with a fellow who used 370 Gr. Northfork flat nose solids in his 416 Rigby for both Elephant and Rhino. The performance was great. He loaded the bullets to approx. 2500 fps and got complete pass throughs on a very large (77 lbs.) Elephant with body shots. He also shot a Rhino with this bullet and got almost a pass through on a broadside shot as well. Half of the bullet was actually sticking out of the hide on the far side. I'm going to give these a try since I had good luck with the Northfork softs in my 375 H&H.

I used the Barnes 400 grain XLC (old blue version) in my 416 Rigby and shot everything from duiker to buffalo (plus a lion).

This year I am also switching to the 370 grain Northfork. My gun likes 104grs of H-4831sc with a slight roll crimp, velocity = 2464fps. I'm also going to take about ten rounds, loaded with the Barnes Banded Solid, as this is one of the most accurate bullets in my gun (~1/2" @100yards and it shoots to the same POA as the Northfork soft). I tried the 370 grain Northfork flat nose solid & cup point solid and haven't found a load that I like yet.

It is always fun to experiment with new bullets but it seems risky to base decisions on only single, anecdotal evidence.

Does one apparent TSX failure mean they are now useless? Softs are not suppose to pass through on buff as it defeats the purpose.

Why not just use A-Frames or Noslers in your 416?

I have used the Swift A frames (400 gr) with complete satisfaction in my 404 and my 416 rigby. My PH told me he has stopped loading solids for buff since the A Frames became available. The trick is not to drive them too fast, 2300 is plenty, and penetration is excellent. I have no experience with the North Forks (I am going to, now!) but the GSC solids are fantastic! These you CAN drive faster, 2500 for the rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:
... but the GSC solids are fantastic! These you CAN drive faster, 2500 for the rigby.

Yes, indeed.
Here is a one-shot cape buffalo killer: