Recoil: Looks like a 375 has twice as much recoil as a 30-06, and a 416 is another, very healthy jump from the 375.

At what point does the advantage of bullet caliber become outweighed by not being able to hit what you are aiming at, due to recoil?

I thought about my own situation.
I'm not likely to be reloading anytime soon, thanks to a number of other things in my life, like work, the apartment, my girlfriend, and time.

So, I need to be able to buy ammo as cheap as possible.

Therefore, the double the cost of the ammo for the 416 is a big deal.

The other kind, notes, about the single stage press, and all that, brings back memories, and how much work it was reloading on a single stage press, and my lack of time.

I did not have to resize, measure, and recut each case each time I reloaded for 223 or 30-06, since, if I wanted match grade ammo my friend would do it, and I would do the mass, fast fire stuff.

Oddly enough, I can't remember once having a round not chamber and fire, due to failing to resize, and trim the cases. This both in 223 and 308.

That said, to get good with a rifle, one has to shoot it alot, and, like my time for reloading, that isn't going to happen in bunches like it did before. Even though
I'm much stronger then when I was younger, and weigh more, I still don't have the time to get good at accepting heavy rifle recoil.
Therefore, the 375 would be a nice step up from 06.
However, finding factory loads, in 375, with the range of bullets that you have in an 06 is impossible. Finding light bullet loaded factory ammo is going to be very difficult, and with a 416, more like impossible.

If I don't have a press, and I want to shoot a bunch, I don't want to shoot full house, 400 grain 416 rounds, or full house, 300 grain 375's. I would hope to find something like a 200-220 grain round for the 375, and something like a 300-320 for the 416.
So. My light rounds in the 375, might have the same bullet weight, but more recoil, then an 06. In 416, if I can find anything, the bullet weight will be nearly twice the weight of the 375 light load, or 30-06 max load, around 200-220 grain bullets. I think that's a big deal.

Saeed's comments are also really valuable.
First, that reloading has to be done single stage.
Second: that he never thought a 416 would give him anything more, in any situation, then his 375 did.
I think he's living proof that accuracy, and penetration are most important, on dangerous game, and that, the slight increase in bullet diameter, and large increase in bullet weight to a 416, are not enough to really make a huge difference in the situations where a 375 is not enough.

If a lion takes 3 375 bullets, has no heart, and continues, on adrenilin, to attack, and maul a hunter, what difference would a 416 make?

If a cape buffalo can take 27 rounds of 375 and 458, is a 416 really going to help?

It would seem, that for those unique situations where you really need a complete game stopper, the requirements are way higher then a 416.

We also have notes posted that not even a T rex in 577 was so much better at stopping an elephant that was wounded, as another caliber.

From many of these stories, I think the only really plausible round for me, for a complete stopper rifle, would be a 20 pound, BMG rifle, with the complete muzzle break, etc. package. I would then know that whatever I hit, would have a very good chance of being slapped hard enough to go down. Of course getting the rifle into position to shoot, is another story.

Financially, the only really reasonable
super heavy came rifle is the BMG.

Look at the expense of the rifles and ammunition for any of the other heavy calibers, based on the H&H series.

I looked at a Wiebe 375 a couple days ago, for 2500 dollars.

Everyone wants 1200 bucks or more for a 458.
The 458 is the only one that is commercially loaded for anything resembling a reasonable cost, and is well over twice the 375 cost.
The Nitro express based rounds are WAY out of the ballpark cost wise, as are just about any of the wildcat rounds.

I just don't see a cost effective round over 458, and 416, other then the BMG.

And, the BMG has the added cost of needed a
hydraulic press for the brass...

Another factor is magazine capacity.

A couple members pointed out the 375 and 416 can carry 5 rounds, and, that in a bad situation, this is better then fewer, larger, rounds.

All of these factors add to the benefits of using a 375, vs. a 416.

While both rifles can be downloaded, the 375 can be downloaded further, and, I suppose, would be easier to deal with, rather then the capacity to bullet weight, and powder amount, that you might have problems with, using a 416.

The breaking rate of CZ stocks.

The first thing I would do with a heavy CZ would be to have it customed glass bedded, a heavy recoil pad installed, and a mercury setup in the stock. Muzzle break, maybe.

Anyway, all of these factors, all added up to the 375.

Also, I'm more likely to find a used 375 cheap, then a 416, since more 375's are sold, by far.

So, time to start really looking around.

The only rifle I have is a Interams Mark X, in 06, and, with scope, it was something like 175, many years ago.

I'm hoping, if I keep shopping,that I will find a similar deal on a 375.

gs

Having a 3500 dollar rifle, that is a 700 Nitro express, that I can't afford to shoot, would truly be a great fool's use of money, when that same cost, could make a trip to africa a considerablly more likely event.

gs

If this is the current climate, I can see having airlines deny carrying ammunition to another country, but, with a 375, I could easily buy, or prior ship, ammo to my destination.

I doubt that would be the case with a different caliber weapon.

gs

I didn't mean to sound like such a scenario was likely. I don't even know if it has ever happened before. I was just trying to make the point that if I was going to worry about something legal happening by using handloads, that would be it--not that the DA would try and charge me with some sort of crime for it.

It has been a long time, but I do seem to remember Winchester getting a few lawsuits during the whole "Black Talon" thing. Basically, good ammo. The claim was it caused "an unreasonable amount of damage." Like I said, good ammo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not so worried that I'd hesitate to send on of my handloaded 200 XTP hollow points at Ludicrous Velocity! from my 44 mag at anybody that asked for it. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't suffer ....

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me. I have read accounts of crooks winning lawsuits against people because they broke into their homes and hurt themselves. Usually something dumb, the floor was slick, they fell down and hit their head, etc. They sue the people that own the house because their house was "unsafe"--and win.

Come to think of it, I think all of those I've read about have been in California...what the hell are the judges out there smoking, anyway?

While I know a few, really wacky judges, most aren't. In fact, from my experience, the real bright spots of the legal profession are the judges.

We get head lines like these:

"Burglarizing kids sue the school, when they fall through the roof and hurt themselves.(The papers use thieves to indicate low income, ethnic groups like blacks, and mexicans, without actually saying it, regardless of whether it's true or not. It just feeds the fire of "guilty black kids, want a free hand out from uncle whitey, thanks to his jewish lawyer" hate speech, playing on the prejudices they have built up, over time, in our minds)

The article then alleges the children were trying to break into the school, and the roof fell in.

The FACTS, discovered early, prior to the case being settled, were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

The Robbing children, turned out to be kids playing after school.

The children had been playing on the roof of an LA school for months, thanks to easy access from a ramp.

The school supervisor had failed to make the roof safe, he was on notice, many times, that the children climbed on the roof.

He has a duty to either prevent them access, or to warn them, in some way or another, from playing on what he KNEW, was a dangerous roof.

Despite prior knowledge, he did nothing.
One day, the roof fell in, and the children injured. No theft, no burglary, all bullshit.

The school had a duty, breached the duty, and paid the children for their harm, and then fixed, and child proofed the roof as they should have done in the first place.

An excellent source to debunk this kind of super liberal, bullshit, anti-gun, or lawyer, reporting is:

http://www.atlanet.org/cjfacts/other/othrmenu.ht#anchor882476

I hope this helps.

gs

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 01-07-2002).]

It appears from your first reply to me that you think I commented on use of handloads in defense. I didn't. Don't know enough about it first hand.

I find your input interesting, but I will add two things. One, I might be more concerned about a tort than a prosecution, as others have pointed out. Two, I know of a case in this state, which you rightly insult, where a person allegedly slashed some tires and, when approached by police, was in legal possession of a handgun with Federal Nyclad ammo. The prosecutor made a big deal of his "Teflon-coated cop-killer" bullets. He did, in fact, keep his permit, and I'm not sure what happened on the original charge. Suffice it to say that while your experience has been good, and may even be typical, it is not necessarily universal.

You wouldn't buy a sports car just by reading articles,
ie without a test drive.

One you aren't too excited about,may really do things for you once you get behind the wheel.

Karl.

the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE MADE A BIG DEAL OUT OF THESE RELOADS.

I think he had an excellent point, that these rounds are designed for one purpose, to defeat police kevlar vests, and, that as a self defense round, just about no one I know would load anything like that.

It has serious shoot through problems, as well.

Also, people engaged in criminal activities
are in a complete different category from the average citizen, acosted, and defending himself.

John S:
I am serious about buying the rifle. Always have been. It's something I've wanted for a long time, but, I also need the time, and resources to enjoy it. Once I decide on the caliber, I still have to find a rifle.

I've always looked around and shopped, and figure that someone out there is going to want to dump one for far less then 825 dollars, since the market isn't exactly huge for them.

Why are you looking at the Winchester rifles?
How do the actions compare to the CZ 550 series?
Trigger, etc.?

As far as past patterns, it took me over a year to finally convince myself, or rather John Linebaugh convinced me, to buy one of his pistols. It took another 6 months to get the gun.

I shopped for a carry gun for about 8 months, and finally settled on a Kimber Ultra Carry, after looking long and hard for another Detonics, at the right price.

After talking to many people, the parts avaliability for the Kimber, and their quaility won out over the Detonics, not to mention finding a Detonics Mark 6 at the right price proved elusive.

As a general rule, I like to make purchases once, and stick with them. I don't plan on selling any firearm I own, anytime soon.

Thanks

gs

I understand the buy now urge, but, since I'm just getting done with law school, and studying for the bar, I don't really have time to go out and shop much, or shoot much.

I've checked with the guys I know around here, mainly in law enforcement, and they don't have anything over 30-06, which for them, is just plenty.

Finding a place where people actually enjoy shooting high powered rifles in this area is difficult. The concord range closed, and I think Chabot is the closest range, and I haven't had time to get out there.

gs

I didn't intern with anyone, only 25 years on the front line, and I know what you're talking about. During qualifications you only used factory ammunition and it was all uniform from officer to officer down to the weight of the bullet used and the recorded serial# of the weapon used to qualify. Name dropping with whom you hang out Socrates doesn't impress anyone. Most of all real LE Officers.

gs

so, for you pricks, and assholes that question my integrity, go fuck yourselfs, and don't post crap, since I'm not. I present myself, as I am, and if you don't like it, I'm calling you a bunch of fucking assholes.

Period.

I accept you for the fucking useless pricks you are, so you can accept me as I am, or not.

The point is, ain't no fucking bullshit here, but yours.
Fuck yourself.

gs

Otto P.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Socrates:
Recono:
" The prosecutor made a big deal of his "Teflon-coated cop-killer" bullets. He did, in fact, keep his permit, and I'm not sure what happened on the original charge. Suffice it to say that while your experience has been good, and may even be typical, it is not necessarily universal. "

the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE MADE A BIG DEAL OUT OF THESE RELOADS.

I think he had an excellent point, that these rounds are designed for one purpose, to defeat police kevlar vests, and, that as a self defense round, just about no one I know would load anything like that.

It has serious shoot through problems, as well.

Also, people engaged in criminal activities
are in a complete different category from the average citizen, acosted, and defending himself.

---

Re-read the post. He was carrying factory Federal Nyclad ammo. They were created for one purpose, by S&W, to cut down on airborne lead at indoor ranges. Federal bought the rights from S&W. The prosecutor was spouting ignorant bullshit, just like you.

As far as I know, the permit-holder, a constable still, was not engaged in a criminal activity, and was merely approached by a policeman who thought he was.

gs

Guess I can't trust a first reading of your material.

gs

Great post!I made a few myself like that in the old days.
Internet accelerated learning disorder I call it.
Most of these guys built up a knowledge of bigbores over ages.
As a net beginner you have access to more experts and information than you could have tracked down in 20 years.
You will also come across 20 years worth of negative responses, and have to ask 20 years of dumb questions too.

No such thing as a free lunch I guess.

Hey at least you didn't change names and
post anonymously mate

Karl.

I still prefer the penetration of the 158 gr. loads though.

Pertinax

quote:

---

Originally posted by pertinax:
Regarding Nyclad ammo: I believe that the .38 Nyclad hollowpoint uses that coating to prevent barrel fouling. The lead in those rounds is very, very soft. That's why they are so well regarded-- the 125 gr. will almost always expand from a 1.5" barrel. Most of the other types won't. (Though the newer generation of Golden Sabers will.)

I still prefer the penetration of the 158 gr. loads though.

Pertinax

---

You are correct. Federal USES (present tense) the coating for that reason, now, to allow a very soft lead. Originally, however, S&W developed Nyclad with the intention that I stated above.

I probably agree with you on the 158's also.

GS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recono:
...was in legal possession of a handgun with Federal Nyclad ammo. The prosecutor made a big deal of his "Teflon-coated cop-killer" bullets.

---

At least he got off. But, there's no excuse for that. A public official harrassing somebody legally because he is ignorant (and too lazy to find out what the bullets really are) or more likely, he did eventually find out and simply lied to the public. Get the "Cop Killer" buzzword in the press, tell people you're trying to string the guy up, get your name in the paper--and get the support of every anti-gun group instantly. Pathetic.

BTW, they are nylon coated, not teflon coated.

http://www.federalcartridge.com/a08p02.html

Hardly "Cop Killers...."

I'm glad to see DA's can be as ignorant as most police officers, concerning fire arms, and ballistics. I can't believe, anyone that has their life on the line, would not know firearms, inside and out. About 80 % of the cops we know, or represent, are stupid, ignorant, young kids, that shouldn't have badges.

Nice to know the law enforcement community has such a low common denom...

Frankly, I wasn't trying to impress anyone with my ties to law enforcement. I respect a couple guys in the business, but, considering you have been doing this for 20 something years, your deception makes me embarassed for the profession. That same, smeared with shit feeling I get, having to defend a bad shooting, or some stupid cop who has to call a friend because he can't disarm a weapon.

By the way, if I was going into court, I would know the purpose, and make of the rounds in question, period.

I guess I had high expectations for DA's. You've just showed maybe firearms owners should be paranoid, if DA's go into court with such crappy evidence, and police officers play games like the kind of crap you just pulled.

By the way, my friends, that you accused me of posting to impress you assholes(why would I want to impress a police officer, that is a
deceptive asshole? If he can be that way posting, why not in real life? A blot on the reputation of law enforcement...)
are good, honest, and straight forward people. I have no doubt were they stand, on anything, and, I respect them for their honesty, unlike your deceptive bullshit.

Go fuck yourself.
And Karl, after long deliberation, I think that is completely justified.

gs

You want to insinuate, that at nearly 50, I'm juvenille, because I don't like lieing, deceptive, assholes? Again, go bend over and fuck yourself in the ass.

gs

If at anytime, I offend you, using bad language, let me know, email.

But, given that free reign, I will tell people exactly what I think of the crap they post.

I have a bit of respect for you, because of your first amendment opinons, in a country that doesn't have that amendment.

Not to mention your hunting experience, and your shooting ability, and the site you run.

All that said, given the freedom to say what I feel, or find, I will not back off calling a prick a prick, or an asshole an asshole, because I want to play kissy with some aged, pos asshole police officer, that thinks his shit doesn't smell.

Low life, uneducated, stupid people are hard to deal with sometimes...
gs

quote:

---

Low life, uneducated, stupid people are hard to deal with sometimes...
gs

---

Ain't that the truth... Sounds like the resume of some bottom feeding trial lawyers I know of.

GS,IMO, most of the rapid fire posts coming from that high capacity keyboard of yours lately, have been bordering on complete nonsense. How about carefully focusing on that front sight of yours and maybe let loose one good, on topic post and spare us your propensity for excessive babbling, dithering and abusing of the submit key!

If you don't like people responding negatively to your posts, do something about it! Think twice, post once!

There! Notice that I didn't use one word of profanity.

Tony

[This message has been edited by T. Kanaley (edited 01-10-2002).]

In Recono's very first, unedited post, it clearly stated the guy had Federal Nyclad ammo.

You said the DA was correct because those "handloads" are specifically designed to defeat kevlar vest--"Cop Killers."

You were wrong. Ignorance. Had you kept your mouth shut you wouldn't have confirmed the fact that you are a fool to everybody (you know how that saying goes?). When Recono pointed this out, you said this "new version" of the story was somehow different and implied that he changed the facts. The only reason you can't trust your "first reading" of his posts is your lack of reading comprehension--not that he changes the story.

Then I post saying the DA was a scumbag. You agreed with me! He should have known what the bullets were or been honest about it if he did before dragging somebody into court. You agree with me!

Since I posted something you agree with, you once again tell me to go fuck myself. Why?

Then you say my posts were deceptive in some way. Deceptive how? Your only perceived deception is, once again, due to your lack of reading comprehension.

Then you badmouth cops and say my "deception" is somehow giving them a bad name...WTF are you talking about?

Where on earth did you get the idea I've been a cop for 20 years? I am not a cop. I never have been. I never said I was. I never even implied I was. I said I had a .44 and that I'd shoot a bad guy with handloads if I had to, that doesn't make me Dirty Harry. Some others here did say they were cops. Not me. Again, that reading comprehension thing rears its ugly head....

Try not to be deceived by this: I am an Engineer at Boeing. A Stress Analyst for the Fuselage of the 747. Clear enough?

quote:

---

Low life, uneducated, stupid people are hard to deal with sometimes...

---

I agree with you! Just remember, you're the one that said this about Federal Nyclad Ammo:

quote:

---

the prosecutor SHOULD HAVE MADE A BIG DEAL OUT OF THESE RELOADS...these rounds are designed for one purpose, to defeat police kevlar vests,....

---

Do you ever take the time to confirm you know as much as you think you know about something before opening your big mouth?

You obviously have internet access...it's a great research tool. Use it.

I haven't researched NYClad ammo because I could careless, and have better things to do with my life then research an esoteric form
of bullet.

You guys want to impress each other with the history of ammunition? Go for it. I'll read and learn.

One of the reasons I use 45 is so I don't need expanding bullets.

I remember faintly, the black talon ammo that was designed to penetrate armor, and, it had a rather nasty, hollow point type
stuff as well.

Nyclad, I don't know about, and just took the post you guys used as a basis for it being another form of armor piercing ammo.
Bad ASSumption.
Why in the world do I have to know everything about ammunition to have a conversation about using the type of ammunition in the legal system?

Frankly, I have never heard it used in court, as a point at issue.

As for the District Attorney's ignorance in the above case: I agree that he did not
keep the obligation to his office. However, I'm sure he paid a price, when he went into court, and was embarassed in public, by some expert testifying about the true design characteristics of the bullets in question.

Legal system has a great way of balancing this kind of stuff out.

The one valid comment in this thread is a sharp lawyer could use the type of ammunition
for a tort suit, but I doubt that would occur.

Guns are by nature, weapons used to kill things, not wound.

The only real argument I could see would be something like an illegal form of ammunition, designed for a specific purpose, and the person obtained it to do that certain purpose.

Armor piercing 50 cal comes to mind.

"Do you ever take the time to confirm you know as much as you think you know about something before opening your big mouth?"

No, I come here to ask questions, and not put on some sort of air that I know anything about what I'm doing. I might know a bit, about somethings, but I'm not full time employeed in the firearms, or ammunition business, and, in areas where I do know something, I often am willing to help people that know less.

I don't require someone research a particular project, just so they can tell me the proper answer, about some esoteric, long forgotten form of ammunition, so I can jerk myself off, showing that I know everything about a particular field.

If you havent' noticed, the name I have, Socrates, was someone that asked questions, questions some of which he knew the answers too, some he did not.

That's how I view the internet, as a place to ask and learn. I didn't realize Saeed required posters here to have like an entry level of esoteric handgun ammo to post here.

"You were wrong. Ignorance. Had you kept your mouth shut you wouldn't have confirmed the fact that you are a fool to everybody (you know how that saying goes?)."

I'm not a fool. Nor does my ignorance of some stupid kind of ammunition make me one.
I missed the irony intended by the post about the NYClads, taking as fact that any District Attorney would research a subject, and not make a fool of himself in court.
My mistake,and we do agree that the DA was a fool, and not holding to the ethics that DA's should uphold.

Odd, I thought this forum was for informing people about reloading? I didn't know that you have to know everything to post here.

I had the idea I was in a place to ask questions, and that therefore, any question, or assumption made was, or could be an inquiry into the subject matter of reloading?

I guess one might come here to research such topics? Instead of trying to play games and prove people wrong on certain topics, just for gamesmanship???

Tony:

Naw: Why bother trying to create some internet personna that I'm not? I'm not about to put the effort into writing a brief that I have to in writing a forum post.
Why?

Yes, in real life, if these guys played these kinds of games, I'd say the samethings, or have nothing to do with them.

But, I'm not about to turn the other cheek, or run and hide, because they want to use an off beat, weird exception to the general rule, to prove a general theory.

As a general rule, they type of reloads you use in self defense are only of value if they can be used to show premeditation, or intent.

Again, the only real rough spots I could see are similar to the ones I posted above, using Ross Seyfried, or any gun professional, and shooter as an example.

"Ain't that the truth... Sounds like the resume of some bottom feeding trial lawyers I know of."

Yes, I have to agree with the above.
Working in the legal field, I run into a lot of lawyers that play all kinds of games, with their employees, etc.

Stuff like
"Write a trial brief for this case in 2 hours."
When you know the proper amount of time for prep is about a week, 10 hours a day, because of the civil procedure issues, combined with the conlaw issues, all of which your research shows is an area of unsettled law, that in all likelyhood, should end up in at least an appellate court, if not the state supreme court...

One of the things law does teach you, is that very few people are experts in all fields. Very few people manage to become experts in one field, period.

So, you learn that if you really want to enter some field, the research, and actual experience in that field is what makes the expert.

That same expert, might be a complete, uneducated, uninformed person in another area.
So, I guess that person is an idiot if he doesn't know what Nyclad ammo is, or he asks questions out of his field?

No, you learn that in each area, you may have myopic people, who you respect for their expertise in that area, but you wouldn't ask them about a car, or a bullet type, etc. since they probably don't know anything in that area. So what? That doesn't make them a fool.

I like people that aren't afraid to ask questions, that they don't know the answers too.

That means they are learning, all the time,
and good students.

You can always learn something from someone, regardless of who they are, or what they do.

So, I don't think I'm going to change my willingness to ask stupid questions just to have you guys think I'm cool.

gs

gs

His humor, and ability to not take this stuff so seriously, is one of the great things about the forum, allowing those of us with varying intrests, or experiences, to go over areas we have no clue about, and learn from people that have had much experience in these areas.

Makes a novice feel at home. Course, not everyone can be a Saeed.
gs

On the fool thing...I know everybody isn't an expert in everything. I most definately am not. I know next to nothing about big bores...that's why I'm reading this section. I was simply pointing out that if you don't know sometimes it's better to learn before you ASSume and go giving your opinion in public. But, I'm guessing you already got that.

Anyway, thanks for posting a response that doesn't tell me to stick something up my...well, you know.

I must say, I do admire your thick skin. I would guess that will come in handy in your future profession. Good luck.

Peace.

I won't do that, and I won't be forced into it, by anyone. Do I know about about firearms? Yes. How did I learn? I ASKED QUESTIONS, or, tried it.

I much perfer to ask questions, since with firearms, it can be painful, or dangerous, if you make a mistake. I remember double charging my first 45 reload, using Bluedot, and what a nice experience that was. Lucky I was using a Detonics, or the gun might have well blown up.

So, I guess you have a choice. Be paranoid, and try and research everything to appear to be a know it all, or post, and ask questions, and hope that people who have shot 80 buffalos will give you a valid answer to your question.

I love being able to ask questions of different cultures, Gerard for example, and different places, and see how many people differ in view points.

The thing is, inherent in that experience is going to be a dialectic process, with friction, and from that process, we all get to understand others view points, and, hopefully, reach a better understanding of both the subject matter, and the people involved.

As you may have guessed, I like animals having a fair chance in a hunt. Doesn't go over with hunters too well, but whatever.

Still, I do understand the situations in hunting, and, some animals require killing, period.

Learning how to exist in a hostile situation is something that should occur through prior investigation, since, if you enter that situation without asking questions of others, you are letting the process of natural selection have way too much to do with it.

In other words, you paddle out at Sunset, or Wiamea Bay, you better have a very good idea of what you are getting yourself into. Likewise if you go crawling around, trying to find, and kill, a cape buff, in thorns.

All of these situations require asking questions, of people willing to share their experience, and, I'm not about to loose that resource, due to a few assholes that want to pull games, one upsmenship, and childrens games.

"Soccer tites"???

Two year olds come up with that kind of stuff...
:lol:

gs

quote:

---

Originally posted by Socrates:
[I remember faintly, the black talon ammo that was designed to penetrate armor, and, it had a rather nasty, hollow point type stuff as well.

The Black Talon was not designed to penetrate armor, it was designed to provide maximimum "stopping power". It did penetrate certain vests, but this was accidental and not a design feature. But the media of course twisted this info, and subsequently Black Talon was restricted to Gov't/LE use only.

The only real argument I could see would be something like an illegal form of ammunition, designed for a specific purpose, and the person obtained it to do that certain purpose.

Armor piercing 50 cal comes to mind.

I belive some states have banned them but .50cal AP rounds is perfectly legal (in the US) under federal law, and there is no reason to ban them.

---

You haven't figured out yet that that was a response to your calling someone Miss Cass after he spent a lot of time answering your questions?

Grow up.

You're probably lying about being a law student just like you're lying about being almost fifty years old. If not, you are in in for a lot of disappointment in your personal life.

Do you reserve your verbal diarrhea for the 'net, or do you get your ass kicked every other day in real life and that's why you have to strike back here?

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but everybody who reads your postings sees through you.

As a counterbalance to all the negativity above, I'm going to give you one free piece of advice. Do with it what you will. The advice is not original with me. It is attributable to Fred Reed at
www.fredoneverything.net .

He says that if you lack self-esteem, what you should do about it is go do something deserving of esteem.

I truly do hope you get it together and stop spouting and start listening and learning, which you probably do some of already, anyway.

Best wishes.

Seems to me, IIRC, that the Black Talon also opened up into a rather nasty looking hollow point. It was a ban generated by the news media, IIRC, since at the time, many other hollow points where on the market.

I often wondered if the name was responsible for all the fuss, not the design.

By the way, Kalifornia pretty much bans all ap rounds.

gs

I guess you need a bit of history.

I posted earlier that the BMG round would make a perfect african hunting round. Tons of power, great penetration, great BC, flat shooting, etc.

This from my brief experience with the gun on an Abrahms tank.

I was roundly whacked here, saying it's not sporting, it's not a hunting round, etc.

So, along come you boys with your 60 pound, long range cannons, and, you take game with them. I mean, the heaviest barrett comes in at 37 pounds, right? And, you use a bullet not designed to kill game, but punch paper.

I actually see where the real hunters are coming from. They get in the bush, crawl around, looking for Cape Buffalo, get within range, and get whacked pretty hard by a heavy rifle, with, at that range, the chance the buffalo may come back and whack them.

What you guys are doing in sniping, not hunting. I guess you just drive up, like many car hunters, throw the gun on the hood, and pound away?

While I may respect anyone that gets really good at anything, calling this hunting is about the same as me killing a squirrel with a 105 mm cannon.

I also have respect for anyone that can make the type of shots you guys pull off.

However, again, is it hunting???

No.

Now, you come into a forum where people actually hunt, and they have morals, and guidelines, and they define hunting in a particular way. I've come to understand that. And you guys break all the rules.
Your rifles can't kick, they weigh as much as Miss Budweiser.

So, I don't know what you call it, but you are certainly not hunting, at least by the guidelines of most of the people in this forum.

gs

gs

Still at it, I see.

Still can't read, either.

Who is DCassel?