Does anyone have a good .500 NE 3" recipe, particularly with Reloader 15 - or other powder? With Bell brass, Woodleigh 570g, and Federal 215 primers, I have tried H4350 106 through 108 grains, and H4831 106 through 110 grains - both with and without overpowder wads. I still get about a 4 inch left to right spread at 50 yards. That is in a Krieghoff double.

[ 08-11-2002, 17:05: Message edited by: hkyhunter ]

hkyhunter,
I think you have not got your bullet speed up enough to make the barrels converge or cross.

Have you chronographed your loads, so that we may be sure of this?

Note that Woodleigh softs will give lower pressures and lower velocities than the XLC, Barnes Solid (coated), or the A-Square Monolithic Solids used below, for any given powder charge. (This parallels my experience with the 470 NE.)

**************************************************
The Barnes manual shows loads for their 570 grain XLC and coated Solid, with MAST brass and F215 primer, from a 26" barrel:

H4350 >>> 98.0 to 102.5 grains >>> 2,030 to 2,150 fps

RL 15 >>> 91.0 to 96.0 grains >>> 2,035 to 2,150 fps
**************************************************

The A-Square manual shows loads for their 570 grain Monolithic Solid, with A-Square case and CCI-250 primer, from a 26" barrel with 15" twist, maximum allowable pressure 36,284 CUP or 40,639 PSI:

H-4831 >>> 109.0 to 115.0 grains >>> 2,057 to 2,198 fps >>> 31,800 to 38,400 PSI

IMR-4350 >>> 100.0 to 105.0 grains >>> 2,048 to 2,141 fps >>> 33,200 to 38,800 PSI

RL-19 >>> 109.0 to 113.0 grains >>> 2,069 to 2,149 fps >>> 35,000 to 39,400 PSI
**************************************************

It appears that you are just on the verge of getting to the starting loads of H-4831.

It appears that the H-4350 and IMR 4350 data from the two sources for two different bullets is kind of "different," even allowing for the differences in their burn rate, but we know that different manuals have these differences built in to them, through different components, conditions, and instrument reliability, etc.

You might try a filler or no filler with the RL-15 in the 500 NE 3". The 500 NE 3-1/4" demands a filler with RL-15.

You might have to go to even higher charges with the soft bullets, then back off with the solids. Your rifle will decide, but it is best to have some chronograph hints along the way.

This is interesting to us doublenuts. Let us know how your loads work out, and please tell us some chronograph data. I may need to load for a 500 NE myself someday.



[ 08-11-2002, 21:00: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I have emailed you an article by Ross Sefried on reloading the Nitro Express. There are several pages it will come in the form of a zip file. It will need to be unzipped!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Hey Rusty,
Can you email that to me too, please?

hkyhunter I tried to email you it came back undeliverable!

hkyhunter,
The main reason the Woodleigh softs will take more powder to get the pressure and velocity needed is that the lead cored bullet is shorter and leaves more case capacity unoccupied, as well as having less bore friction due to the shorter bearing surface. The monolithic brass and copper bullets are long and crowd the case more, as well as having longer bearing surfaces in the bore to increase resistance and pressure.

The only monolithic bullet I could recommend would be Gerard's FN and HV. They have the driving bands and less bore resistance, but are long, especially the HV. Maybe the XLC and blue coated solids are O.K. in newer/modern doubles also.

For a given powder charge, I found that the velocities for a given bullet weight (500 grain 470 NE) were like this, from highest to lowest:

GSC HV ...................2164 fps
Barnes XLC................2141 fps
Swift A-Frame.............2120 fps
Woodleigh Solid...........2115 fps
GSC FN....................2095 fps
Woodleigh Weldcore........2083 fps

The GSC FN is longer than the Woodleigh Solid/FMJ,
but its driving bands decrease bore resistance and lower pressures and velocities with the fixed powder charge.

My ideal combo for the double rifle is a Woodleigh Weldcore and the GSC FN, or Woodleigh FMJ, if I run out of my stash of FN's. The FN and Weldcore will shoot to the same velocity/POI with almost identical powder charges.

Adjust your powder charges as needed, and keep your powder dry.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 05:27: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 05:28: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Thanks for all the replies fellows. I will load some more ammo (about 8-12 rounds is my limit even from a standing bench) and report back next weekend. The shots land left and then right so I was thinking the shots were not crossing, but in rethinking this, I actually fire the rear trigger/right barrel first (to avoid doubling), so the shots are actually crossing. I will drop back down on the powder and see what happens. Incidentally, 110 grains of H4831 is getting to the "edge" of some serious recoil and I hate to think about putting more powder in anyway. I do have a chrono and will check the velocity.
I just checked - the rifle comes with test targets (two inch groups) done at 50 yards with WR (Wolfgang Romney, I assume) 570g softpoint ammo. Too much powder could also explain my groups being about 5 inches low at 50 yards, which I had assumed just meant a higher rear or lower front sight was needed. I'll report back.
I double checked and my email address is working, so Rusty, please resend
(Note: correction=front trigger fires right barrel and rear trigger fires left barrel and the shots are not crossing. Groan! more powder needed it appears).

[ 08-12-2002, 05:46: Message edited by: hkyhunter ]

With Reloader 15 it is 1.19X the original coridte load. Use Dacron pillow filler to take up the space and you get extremely uniform velocities!
Keep trying to emial the article, however hotmail apprently blocks that large an attachment. email me your fax number or snail mail addy and I will get a copy off to you!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

He MUST know if his shots are moving away from each other or crossing each other so that he can load his rounds either up or down in grains.

Actually getting a double to shoot is pretty easy as it normally depends on a certain bullet at a certain velocity....also, many doubles just don't shoot much better than 4" at 50 yds...

To simplify shooting in your double, take a couple of powders and Woodleigh bullets and load 4 or 5 different loads with each powder at 1 gr. increments both below and over 2100 FPS, one of them will shoot 99 times out of a 100.

A really accurate double is a "Thang" of sweetness...thus "Sweet Thang" my 450-400-3" that shoots ALL loads to the same POI and in a one inch round hole most of the time...She is well used and patched up on the wood here and there, a little rough around the edges but she is honest and never fails....and I have never seen a double that shoots like she does.

Ah yes, "sweet thang you make my heart sing, ah think ah love you la ta da" etc. a 50's hit tune, a little buggered up but you get the idea. Maybe I should just changer her name to "Wild Thang"??

hkyhunter,
You said "rear trigger/right barrel." Most doubles have the opposite setup. Is this a left handed double rifle, or the opposite of the usual for some reason?

If you have this confused then you likely are not converging at 50 yards yet.

I think Todd E's 107.0 grains of IMR 4350 with a Woodleigh 570 grain Weldcore sounds about right.

If you don't like the stiffer recoil, use the Reloder 15 charges. Less rocket effect, less recoil, and maybe the most accurate of all when used with a filler, as Rusty suggests.

The purist or anyone with an antique double should use RL 15 with filler and Woodleigh RNSP Weldcores and avoid any solids except for serious business after establishing the load workup.

All the solids, even the STEEL jacketed Woodleigh Solid, are harder on barrels.

I am about convinced that those slippery FN solids by GSC (monometal pure copper with moly coated driving band configuration) may be the gentlest Solid of all regarding double rifle bores, bar none, despite what Mac says.

I did try some Barnes XLC's which are monometal copper with "Blue Stuff race car engine coating", but I don't think I would subject even my monstrously strong Merkel 470 NE to the bronze monolithic solids, whether blue stuff coated or not.

Ray,
Doggonnit, you done copped all the good ones for pet double rifle names!

I hereby claim "BangThang" for my Merkel. I get a lot of kicks from banging BangThang. She is sweet and wild, and makes it hurt so good.

Dagga Ron,
You are exactly right. The front trigger does fire the right barrel, and rear trigger the left barrel. I had just come to the same conclusion shortly before seeing your post, and double checked it firing some primers. Thus, my shots have not been crossing at 50 yards.
Thank goodness for daylight saving time. All this talk of nitros got me to reload a few and make it to my local range just before dark. That venture indicates 103g, 104g, and 105g of H4350 do not make any better groups - and my shoulder hurts. Next weekend, I will try RL15.

hkyhunter This has been discussed previously with mixed opinions but I am reporting on what happened to me the other day. I was checking the zero of my 9.3x74R double at 100 yards [2.5x8 scope on 8x] before going to 200 yards. I fired my LEFT bbl first then the right. My zero was way off, it hit 3" high, and 5" left of its "normal" zero. I let the rifle cool and fired RIGHT then left and the group was back in the "normal" place. You might try shooting right then left while trying to "regulate" your loads to your rifle. As a point of interest my groups at 200 yds with 65 gr. of IMR 4831 were:
Impact from point of aim:
286 Nosler Partition, right bbl +2" left bbl +2" and 3" right.

285 Hawk .035jkt right bbl 1/2" left, left bbl 4"left.
Both groups could be covered by a 4"x4" sheet of paper. Rifle was shot standing with a rest under the left arm only as might be done while hunting in the field. The rifle is sighted 3" high at 100 yards. I have it set up like this for a Bear hunt in Montana this Sept.

This post was deleted in it's intirety, because it indicated a brian function loss on my part, the proper explanation is in DaggRons post to me about the mistake, and my symptoms of AlzHiemers desease!

[ 08-13-2002, 19:51: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Krieghoff regulats factory ammo at 100 yards in a Big Five rifle, AND there is an "adjustable muzzle wedge" in the front sight, to allow for re-regulation. page 4 of this article http://www.krieghoff.com/pages/downloads/ClassicCat.pdf

I don't have the slightist idea of which way or what impact these adjustments would make, but there it is.
jeffe

Dagga,
you could go with gang bang and gang bang wild thang while our bang banging gang thang....Never mind

Unfortunately, there is another issue to deal with before further load development. The recently made BELL .500 NE brass is defective. The rim is too thick (50/1000 versus correct 40/1000). As my rifle is new, I had assumed the difficulty in closing was just stiffness that would go away as it had with another new double I had in a different caliber.
RULE ONE: never assume anything. Today, I called BELL which admits the problem and that they are trying to get the brass recalled. That is exasperating after waiting four months for the brass.
Incidentally, I discovered the head diameter and rim thickness for the .470 NE and .500 NE are the same. The rifle closes correctly with a .470 case. I used that as a double check on the rim thickness.

Jeffeosso
In the Krieghoff, there is no adustable wedge in the .470 or .500, only smaller calibers. I do not know if the regulation of Krieghoff is done at 100 yds, but the included test targets with the .500 are clearly marked 50 yds.

[ 08-13-2002, 03:02: Message edited by: hkyhunter ]

Very interesting posts. I think Todd E's post needed that extra clarification provided by MacD37. Goodluck on you load development.

SRS

hkyhunter,

A buddy bought a Kriegoff last year in 500/416 NE. It was regulated for 100 yards. He had a set of 20 Ga. barrels added and another set of rifle barrels in 8X somethingR. The rifle has performed flawlessly. He took it ot Africa and raved about the 500/416 on game!

Rusty
We band of borthers!

MAC!
I ignored the error the first time, thinking you might have gotten discombobbulated.

Too slow a velocity causes the bullet from the right barrel to shoot high and to the right: wide. The left barrel will shoot high and to the left with this same load.

At the proper velocity with the proper bullet weight, both barrels shoot to the point of aim at the distance for which the gun was regulated.

At too high a velocity, the right barrel shoots low and to the left, the left barrel shoots low and to the right at the regulated distance.

You taught us this properly once before. Is sometimers" disease setting in? Happens to me too "sometimes."

It is because of the dwell time of the bullet in the barrel. The right barrel is thrown upward and to the right in recoil. A slow bullet leaves the muzzle after the muzzle is too high and to the right for the bullet to hit the target. And the converse for the left.

Regulation makes the two barrels point inward (converge at the muzzle slightly) and downward. If the bullet is too fast it leaves the barrel before recoil can raise and deflect outward the barrel, so the too fast bullet falls low and crossing at the regulated range.

Revolver shooters (Casulls anyone?) know well that a heavy slow bullet may strike high on the target while a fast bullet generating stiff recoil may strike low, because it leaves the muzzle before the barrel rises much, given that the sight setting is the same for both shots, i.e., fixed sights, like a double rifle.

The two barrels of the double rifle add the complexity of convergence and divergence in the horizontal also, as well as the vertical shifting.

I think you have just misspoken.

I think hkyhunter is still wide and high with the loads he first gave. Speeding up the bullet will probably tighten up his 50 yard regulated group.

But first he needs to shoot the proper right-left, right-left sequence, and he should chronograph the loads for benefit in load development and safety with his precious. Nice gun!

Yes, I have come to realize that most rifles will group better this way, having been regulated that way, with the heat flash and metal expansion surely having some effect. I still think there might be some doubles that will shoot pretty close when fired either right-left or left-right, but they are the rare bird of paradise amongst double rifles.

Hey, Todd E, I thought your explanation was pretty good. Beware, there may be prejudice lurking about. Change your handle to your own unique identifier, and try to be nice to us mere mortals!

Ray,
No thanks. But I would like to do BangThang and Sweet Thang in rapid succession, maybe a little Wild Thang action too. Nah, that might be considered immoral in some social circles, and would BangThang still respect me after that? Better not go there.

hkyhunter:

The Krieghoff that Rusty referred to above belongs to my safari partner. The second set, originally, were in 7 X 65R which, unfortunately, didn't pan. Krieghoff took them back and fitted a set of .375 Flanged Magnum. The .500/.416 barrels have a fixed wedge, .375 down are hex wrench adjustable. Accuracy with the .500/.416 barrels is superb - now. With factory sights every shot at anything beyond 50 yds was a Hail Mary. Modification cut groups more than in half. So far, .416 barrels with sights only make smaller groups than .375 with scope. Lot of tuning to do on the .375 yet though. The Krieghoff is a sound piece and a lot of double rifle for the money, but derserves better express sights than come on it.

The RL15 recipe Rusty referred to, with a bit of poly fill, has given much greater consistency in the over .40' nitros I've tried it in than any of the slower propellants. Use enough filler. You want it to spring up almost to the case mouth when pushed down on the powder with a pencil. Once you've determined the right amount, WEIGH each one, don't guess. I've never quite made it to 119% of Cordite in my rifles with Woodleigh bullets, so work up carefully and shoot over a chronograph. When you hit 2150fps, QUIT.

Todd E:

I agree with you about the Krieghoff's barrel contour making use of 4831 and other slow powders a possible option. Factory Krieghoff .500/.416 is loaded with H1000. I'm unconvinced that this is the best approach, though.

It occurs to me that your point about the slow powder/blow-up rumour might be interesting to get some comment on as I haven't seen this lately. I've heard this rumour for years but have never seen it happen. I'm not positive as it was a long time ago, but I seem to recall the late Bill Reinie (sp?) at Champlin telling me that one or more of the double rifle blowups that he had over the years (he was missing a couple fingers from his left hand) were from the old 133% of IMR 4831 formula. I do know that he was convinced that this formula was dangerous. I won't suggest that I KNOW why this may happen, but I have my own theory.

In order to achieve acceptable weight and proper handling dynamics, the barrels of double rifles must be significantly thinner than those of magazine rifles. The English formula for proper barrel contour (including minimum wall thickness, etc.) was developed a century ago, with Cordite. In burn rate, by today's standards, Cordite is about dead medium and its comtemporary substitutes, Axite and Moddite, were slightly faster. My guess is that, since these much slower propellants probably reach and maintain peak operating pressure much further down the bore, those minimum wall thicknesses up forward that were perfectly safe with cordite sometimes prove inadequate with 4831, H1000, etc. Yeah, reproofed "light" nitros and BPs might be at greater risk of this, but the stories I've heard involved original, full load rifles.

The Krieghoff barrels are very different from the English stuff with respect to barrel contour. Wall thickness is MUCH thinner over the chambers and taper is straighter, resulting in greater thickness forward. This is why I believe 4831 may be OK in it. This profile also results in weight distribution/handling dynamics that can be hard to get used to after years of using the English guns.

Not an argument, just a theory!

400 Nitro Express,
Interesting. Graeme Wright seemed to attribute the barrel splitting problem to older rifles, made prior to WWII. Steels were not as good then and pre-existing faults may have been the true culprit in the fatigue and failures.

Another factor to consider is variation in bore and bullet diameters in the older guns. Oversize bullets and/or undersized bores can be very hard on the rifling with hard bullets (solids) especially.

Cases of bulged, bent, cracked or splintered barrels and ribs were said to be countable on the fingers of one hand on each continent he noted, in his memory. I suppose someone who had lost several fingers in such mishaps might have a problem with that.

He didn't think the slow powders were a problem in modern guns, basically, but even he is very noncommittal on this.

The barrels usually split near the end of the forearm and then extended on out to the muzzle. X-raying for cracks was suggested as a precaution on old guns before use.

Your comment about the sights on the Krieghoffs is begging the question of whether hkyhunter has the proper elevation filed into his sights.

I just noticed that he says his loads are going low and wide.

This would suggest a need for a lower front sight, or a higher back sight, or that his hold is too firm and the rifle is being held down against the standing rest instead of rising with recoil, or indeed that his loads are too fast and have crossed and are low, as explained above by me, and in Graeme Wright's book.

We need CHRONOGRAPH data! Or something is not kosher here.

Hkyhunter, I have a Krieghof 500NE and reload for it too. After a lot of trying I settled for Horneber brass, RP91/2, Woodleigh 570 FMJ and 112 grains of Norma 204. It is giving me 640m/s and two inch groups at 50 meters. I have used it in hot sun of Kamerun without signs of overpressure.

Bongo

Righto Mac, you were teaching me this stuff before I had read Graeme Wright and verified it with BangThang.

Rusty, and all,
I think the article by Seyfried (referred to above) is "Reloading the Nitro Expresses" in the Dec. 1999 _Handloader_ magazine. I went and found it myself in the glossy paper pile.

Following Ross's advice: RL-15, F-215 primer, and Dacron/polyester filler of 6 to 7 grains for the 500 NE 3". Stick to Woodleigh 570 grain Weldcore softs for preliminary work up.

The goal is to get 2150 fps with the equivalent of 80 grains of cordite: 1.19 X 80 = 95.2 grains of RL-15.

Ross says the RL-15 formula method is almost always spot on when used with Dacron filler. He said to start 2 grains below the calculated charge and work up.

My own experience is that brass variation can cause a couple of grains difference in the charge required.

Also, a tight wad of Dacron may get better velocity than the foam fillers, which weigh much less than the Dacron wads when properly sized. This adds another possible adjustment to the calculated charge.

All this just leads to minor adjustments in the formula charge.

Of course the statement that Krieghoff used H-1000 to load their ammo for regulation, may be a fly in the ointment.

Hkyhunter is trying to duplicate the barrel time and muzzle velocity of the regulator's ammo, with the same weight bullet. Bullet type (regarding bore friction, bearing surface, seating depth and resulting powder space, etc.) and the powder used by the regulator would be helpful. Why doesn't blasted Krieghoff tell the buyer what load was used, supply the recipe?

Merkel regulates their 470 NE at 50 meters.

Merkel claimed to use factory Federal 470 NE with the 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid. This is a bronze encapsulated (lead core in the base and monometal nose portion) pretty hard solid. Federal uses the F-216 flame thrower primer (that we can't get) and RL-15 with no filler.

It would be impossible for me to duplicate this load, but I did get a "best" grouping load that equaled the Merkel factory target (4 shot's into 1.6" at 50 meters) by using the Woodleigh softs and 92.0 grains of RL-15 with a foam filler in Norma brass.

Use of the heavier BeLL brass and the heavier, less compressible Dacron wad might lower the RL-15 required to 88 grains, my guess.

Anyway, hkyhunter will be able to find a suitable load I am sure, but it is a bit aggravating to not have the recipe supplied by the manufacturer.

For Merkel 470 NE owners it is a bit easier due to the off the shelf Federal TBSH loads. And their Woodleigh soft load works well enough too, but not as well as my handloaded Woodleigh softs.

If you cross at 50 yards, you can still have pretty good groups at 25 yards, of course, and out at 100 yards. If I cross at less than 50 meters with a faster solid bullet load around 2150 fps, then I still have adequate groups from the muzzle to any reasonable dangerous game range for a solid bullet.

My rifle seems to shoot tightest at 50 meters/~yards with a muzzle velocity of ~2080 fps with both the 500 grain Woodleigh soft and the 500 grain TBSH. Some faster loads still group O.K. out to 100 yards, but I really shouldn't be using a 470 NE with iron sights any farther than that.

Of course I use a cheapy Pro Chrono Plus. It has seemed reliable in the past. BangThang really deserves an Oehler. Maybe she is actually putting out better than I think. What a gal!

DaggaRon, you really like that little Merkel,Bang Thang, don't you!

I'm the same way about the little Merkel 9.3X74R I have, it is balanced perfectly, and shoots to 4 shots/2.25" at 50 yds. "LIL SISTAH" is fast becomming my favorite double rifle, and I take her out every chance I get!

I am itching to get back to load development for the .500. However, I had to UPS the defective (50/1000 versus correct 40/1000 rim thickness)BELL brass back to the supplier today. No telling when I will get replacements.
Incidentally, in my .470 NE, with Bell brass and 87g of RL15, with a dense foam overpowder wad (made with BMG case "cookie cutter" from military ground pad for sleeping bag), the Searcy double gave excellent groups. RL15 WITH THE WAD gave much better groups than any other powder I tried.
In Botswana this July, my PH "begged" for my unused rounds, as the .470 shot through an elephant, both on a head shot and side heart shot, and his .458 (based on .416 Rigby case, I forget the cartridge name), did not.

[ 08-14-2002, 02:55: Message edited by: hkyhunter ]

Ah ha! Hkyhunter, you done been dere an' done dat!
Let us know how it turns out with the good brass.

MacD37,
I done been too silly! I shall retain the nickname BangThang, or maybe BangBangThang, for my double rifle, but I shall desist in making lewd references to her name.

After all, if I am going to serve as a poster boy for hillbilly double riflery, I must maintain some sort of respectable decorum.

When JudgeG gets the Poor Man's Double Rifle perfected, I hope to see a double rifle in every home, and a chicken in every pot, all across Appalachia and the rest of this great country, the USA.