I read that you feel I am to blame for being angry. Is the victim at fault for not being stronger than the attacker?

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 05-31-2001).]

[This message has been edited by judgeg (edited 05-23-2001).]

Karl.
P.S. I hope you like that smiley too.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 05-23-2001).]

You take a risk giving a deposit to Mom and Pop operations. You took the risk and lost. Buy something off-the-shelf the next time.

My rule-of-thumb is that if you can't afford to loose it, don't bet it. And Jesus, quit whining about it.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Mats,

I read that you feel I am to blame for being angry. Am I also to blame for being cheated? Is the victim at fault for not being stronger than the attacker?

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Lotsagrains,

Of course you're not to blame for being angry. However, with your posts on this forum and other you've probably sunk the company (don't underestimate the power of the written word on discussion fora such as this), and thus shot any chance you and others had of getting either a product or a refund.

Plain and simple.

-- Mats

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 05-24-2001).]

Turning the BATF loose on anyone is akin to putting a baby in amongst a mess of starving crocodiles. It's cruel, it's wrong, and it should be illegal. Your forgiven your ignorance of our countries Gestapo, you don't live here. Type in BATF and read some of the criminal things they have done on any search engine(Murder, Framing people, enticing people to commit crimes, killing pets, you name it they have done it.)

500grs I don't understand, I supply a product to other in my business. The difference being my product is stationary when I finish. I have contracts and other things to prove my case, in the last year or so 4 people didn't have the money to pay for completion. I didn't call the law, I didn't send the attack dogs, I didn't sue. We sat down and worked it out, in two cases I had to threaten to remove the fences I had built, leaving them with nothing and me with a loss for removing them. Business is about leverage, BATF isn't about leverage it's about tyranny and murder, and all sorts of evil corrupt things.

I'd be curious to hear the other side of the story here, what did you act like, how much did you yell. Sometimes in business it's real hard to refund deposits when maybe the raw materials have already been bought. You made a commitment to purchase here, he is still planning to produce a product. If you believe anything the bastards at BATF have to say, your so naive you deserve to lose the deposit. I personally witnessed two BATF agents in SA lie outright to a US Senator. Ten witnesses to what they said to a gun store owner, and what they where doing(making copies of yellow forms for files) and they lied to the senator when he called them on it. If they will lie to a Senator they will lie to you, you can bet on it. You forget you are their sworn enemy 500grains, you are a part of the gun culture, if they can use you to destroy a gun manufacterer they will, they have. You screwed up big time here, I think you owe the board and Express Rifle an apology, if I was them, i'd have you in court on slander and libel charges.

As I matter of fact I think I might go ahead and print this set of posts and mail it to them, saw their address somewhere here. Maybe i'll call the FBI and report you for filing false reports(they'll probably burn you and your family alive, that's what they do).

Think about what you have done, think about it from his shoes.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Saint Gunner (edited 05-24-2001).]

Sworn enemy of who? Apologize for what?

What the heck is going on here?

If I am reading this right, almost EVERYONE on this board is crucifying 500grains for daring to demand good customer service.

Someone above even said that he should just forget about his money. WHY????!!!!!

I used to sell guns, not even a "mom-and-pop" business, just "pop". If I took someone's money, I DELIVERED--PERIOD. If I couldn't deliver, I RETURNED THEIR MONEY PROMPTLY.

Someone else said something like, "Well, they're just starting out--just try to understand what they're going through. They might not have the money to pay you back".

HORSE MANURE. BIG STEAMY, SLIMY BUCKETS OF COW, HORSE, PIG, CHICKEN AND DOG EXCRETA, AND OTHER FORMS OF NITROGENOUS WASTE.

That's called spending money you don't have.

As far as slander, libel, or anything else is concerned, here's the deal, folks--

IF this company IS manufacturing firearms for resale, and IF they have accepted money for firearms with promises of delivery WITHOUT the appropriate Federal Firearms License, THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW, PERIOD!!! IF THEY BREAK THE LAW, THEY ARE THIEVES, CROOKS, CROSSROADERS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THEM.

I have no truck with CRIMINALS like that.

Don't like it? GO CRY IN YOUR PABLUM!!! I fully support 500grains efforts to gain satisfaction. As a matter of fact, I would probably advise 500grains to simply demand his money back, and NOT TO ACCEPT A FIREARM FROM THESE PEOPLE AT ALL. Why? If he does, and they STILL don't have the proper licenses, that makes him an ACCESSORY!!

And, is someone bent out of shape because he called ATF? TOUGH, BUSTER!!! Guess what? When I was selling guns, I had someone approach me to purchase quantities of AK's, AR15's, 1911's, and ammunition. Then, they hinted at being interested in full auto--and wanted it under the table. They told me that money was no object. They told me that I would make a substantial sum by completing the transaction.

Guess what I did?

I called ATF Compliance.

The guys were busted a short time later, in a sting. They were going to take the guns south of the border, and possibly circulate some up here.

You know what the ATF Agent told me, at the conclusion of this whole thing?

He asked me if I carried a gun. At that time, I did not.

He then told me, "You'd better, at least for a while. These guys do not play around."

How bout that, folks? An ATF agent advising me to go armed? In a non-carry state?

Finally, for all those who just advise 500grains to "give up the money, and learn from experience":

If you are willing to follow your own advice, E-mail me. I'll give you my address, and you can send me the $1050 you are willing to throw away. You can afford it right?

If you are not, then SHUT UP, and leave the man alone. If you can't support him, and think to yourself, "There, but for the grace of God, go I", then BACK OFF.

Rant complete.

Z

Here is how I see it. 500 grs is owed money, and the company has not handled this issue to his satisfaction, heck I don't think anyone would be satisfied if they were in his shoes. That said, there are a few extenuating circumstances to consider. Making a deposit to a company for a product that they haven't been proven capable of producing, asside from the legalities is a poor move on anyones part. The death of Mr. Bastow really put the whole business in a bind, and can often cause places to up and fold.

Sicking the BATF on a company is simply a, you burned me, so I'll burn you move, getting the pound of flesh as it were in replacement of the cash. Just one comment for those that like to be brash and play with fire, someday, somewhere, you just might do someone wrong, and the vengence you seek here just might swing back and bite you.

The approach I would personally take would be to try and re-establish a dialogue with the new owner. Explain that you understand his predicament, and comiserate with him, but that you are also in a predicament, and want your money back. Ask for a timeline of when he may be able to re-pay you, and if he would be willing to make payments, or at least make a partial return, to show good faith.

Be realistic, legal action will be way more exspensive then the relatively sum of your loss. If you never get the $ back, then chalk the loss up to tuition of life. Material objects and money are never worth the loss of one's piece of mind. Your only real recourse is to try and work with the guy.

Your trip to the BATF, and the reasons for it, bear no resemblance at all to 500grains' situation.

He went to the BATF for pure spite and no other reason, and by doing so he hurt the chances of fellow shooters (as well as himself) to ever recover anything from ERC. The BATF is by law purely a taxing body. They can only levy punitive fines, shut companies down, and put people in jail - actions that can only reduce a company's ability to produce or repay.

I - and most of the other posters here - do assert positively that he should get his money or his actions. He has not lost his rights yet.

As to the people you turned in to the BATF, they are certainly criminals now, whether they were before or not. The BATF tends to want to "win" every time, and their definition of winning is not necessarily justice, it is putting people in jail or forcing them to try to entrap others so that they can continue to justify their bureaucratic existence.

Don

I think you hit the nail on the head. I always say, you can do what you want in private, but you wave your balls in my face, i'm gonna bust em. This whole things comes off to me like 500grs is trying to show just how hard his is, all it shows is he's a cruel heartless person who can't fight his own fight.

Powderman,

Exactly what have you been drinking? So are you and the BATF big buddies? I know exactly one gun store owner who enjoys the BATF, I don't do business there. Let me paraphrase here,"Those who toss meat to appease tigers, do so in the hopes they will eat them last." I understand that dealers are forced to deal with the Gestapo to keep from being shot and killed, but when someone snuggles on over and tells how great they are it gives me a case of upset stomach.

500grains has a problem, I don't think to many here say that the problem is all his fault, but calling down the Gestapo on a company because of some action is wrong, I don't care if that company is violating every gun law in the book, the document says, shall not be infringed. That means in short the laws are wrong, and the Gestapo is wrong. 500grs fed the corruption, he fed the lies, he increased the wrong with his actions.

If you read through this post from the first, you should see what happened. But in short version, he sent money for a deposit to a rifle company with a terminally ill owner, that owner died before he could produce the product. The new owner is planning on continuing production, but has not secured the proper BATF licenses as of yet. I'm not sure what all they need besides a standard FFL, but with bore sizes larger than .5 inches, I think a destructive device license is needed. I've heard that getting one is a pure D pain in the butt.

I wish someone who knows Express Rifle company would swing by there and ask them to enter this thread. It would be nice to have both sides heard.

In Liberty,

Steve

Respects to All ...

I will say this. To further drag this out here or anywhere is to hurt this fellowship of shooters as a whole. I have met few of you face to face, but concider several of you as my friends. I feel this thread is going to cause some feels to hard to repare if the name calling and snide remarks aren't keep down.

If I read this right 500 has alredy done what he said he would do. Weather you agree with it or not the damage has been done to ERC. A bunch of arguing and verbal face slapping will not change it.

X-Ring

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Freedom wasn't free. Today they want our guns. What will they want tommorow?

It is not very likely that this thread will get shut down. Saeed has indicated that he feels as I do on that subject.

To paraphrase someone famous, "while I do not approve of 500grains' actions, I will defend to the death his freedom to act that way."

We are all adults here. Surely we can disagree without degrading ourselves.

Don

Regards ... Nick

As hunters and shooters we have taken worse hits from the anti's than I have seen here. If we are to be "thin skinned" we will surely lose our gunownership quicker.

As I stated before, I completely disagree with 500 Grains use of the Bad Attitude Toward Freedom guys, but he stands by his actions. What doesn't kill us hopefully will make us stronger

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The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who
are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." ------Chainsaw

At your request, Nikudu this duck is flying South.

So

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

This goes out to all, but is written as though I am speaking to 500 person-to-person

500
What I would do is take adavantage of this forum and request that the membership assist you in something like a email campaign, or letter writing campaign. There is strengh in numbers and we have quite a few good members that would probably be willing to help with this.

I think you could get something out of a small-claims civil action BUT:

I would never involve the ATF in this issue because, if every small gunmaker/smith had to worry about a customer complaining to the ATF every time there was a problem, be it real or imagined, there would only be a handful of giant corporations building fairly generic firearms, and nobody to help you customize them into something unique. And if you think for a minute that they would ever list any of the beloved calibers above 460 Weatherby, well wrong!! And I am not sure even Weatherby could stay around. Maybe not, and forget ever seeing Dakota, Arnold, Cooper, Lazzeroni, or any of these smaller "major names". And the few large corporations that did remain, believe me, have the legal resources to tell you "I don't care, period" and there would be nothing that you could do about it, realistically. And do not think for a minute that it would be the job of these large corporations to be interested in selling guns just because that is what they make. Remember Smith and Wesson? Remember Winchester (Black Talon)? And on and on and on.....

The point being, it is the existance of the small gunmaker/smith that insures a certain standard of off-the-rack quality in the mass produced things we buy and often, their job to conduct remidies when it is not there. Remember, "Dont cut down the tree, to pick off one bad apple"

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

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Freedom wasn't free. Today they want our guns. What will they want tommorow?

Good luck with the spell check. I can't get it to work either.

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

Part of this service includes maintaining a list of businesses which are not in compliance and/or which have unresolved complaints. Usually, these offices can advise whether a particular business has complaints outstanding or not. Just ask.

On a different note, a Small Claims action quite frequently will not prove satisfactory: I've seen several which ought to have been decided in one direction, but which weren't. After seeing this several times, I arrived at the tentative conclusion that the judges were bribed or influenced some way.

In cases where there is a basic agreement that a sum is owed, it would be prudent for an on-paper agreement to occur, setting forth a timetable for repayment of the debt, perhaps in fixed monthly payments, and with some measure of interest, etc., as an incentive. The alternative would be to learn whether some other piece of property would be available to accept in place of money as a refund....
Paladin