In August, 2000 I paid Robert Bastow a deposit of $1050 for two barreled actions. He was to deliver the actions in November.

November passed and he said he would deliver in December. December passed and I contacted him again in January. He said that they were on the verge of having all of the problems worked out and that he would be able to deliver the barreled actions.

A week later he died.

His widow Ellen Bastow promised to "make it right" with me. But she sold the Express Rifle Company to Mathew Smith who assumed its debts.

Since February, 2001, I have been requesting a refund of my $1050 deposit. It turns out that the Express Rifle Company still does not have its license from the BATF and in any event will not be licensed to produce anything with a bore diameter over .500. Both of the barreled actions I ordered would have a bore diameter greater than .500 so it is a legal impossibility for the Express Rifle Company to deliver my order. And they are now 6 months late.

Mathew Smith has admitted to me that he owes the deposit to me and has repeatedly promised to pay all or part of it. However, over time I have learned that he is just making excuses and giving me the runaround. I would recommend against doing any business with him.

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 05-31-2001).]

There is also a certain amount of risk when dealing with anyone, including Mom and Pop operations.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, however I think that you would be better served by investigating small claims court rather than siccing the BATF on this fledgeling company.

You are also, in effect, increasing the likelihood that everyone else will get screwed no matter how long they're willing to wait.

If Hitler was still around would you sic the Gestapo on a German 'smith that was slow to produce?

What had you ordered and what was to be the final price?

FWIW,
Don

If this business entity is indeed manufacturing firearms without the necessary licenses, then they are guilty of a felony. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of gunsmiths and dealers in the United States who deal each day with the restraints of Federal, State, and local law when dealing with firearms.

The failure to perform by this company is not a Second Amendment issue; it does not deal with Constitutional rights. Rather, it seems that these people are not only breaking Federal law, but committing fraud as well.

Yes, I know that there are way, WAY too many firearms regulations on the books right now. Yes, I would (if I could) make almost every one of them disappear, right now, this minute! But, until we all get off of our collective duffs and VOTE these laws out of existence, and refuse to let closet criminals into our Government, we're stuck with what we have. Make the Government work on our side for once.

Once of the reasons that we have all the problems we have in our countries is becuase people rely on the gov't in their time of need.

A friend of mine in Australia was interested in these actions. After a few emails backwards and forward, it soon became apparent to us that "waiting" was required.

In short and probably because of my political attitudes, I would lay the blame at your feet.

Mike

A couple of things come to mind.

1. The BATF has done so well in the past, after 500 grains' complaint Mr. Mathews will be lucky if his dog is still alive, and 500 grains' children may not live long enough to receive the funds if Mathews surrendered the funds to them tomorrow.

2. I don't want the same people that brought us Ruby Ridge doing my business. No way. No how. I'd rather loose the money.

3. I don't think very highly of attorneys either (sorry if that offends).

4. If The Express whatever won't be liscensed to manufacture a barreled action .50 caliber or greater, then have him build 2 actions to fit whatever cartridges you have in mind. Settle on a price, and have a 'smith fit and headspace the barrels.

5. Maybe 500 grains, you can settle for a caliber under .50. Check out some of Saeed's slick wildcats. They are pretty neat.

6. Maybe you could mix and match.

7. If Mr. Mathews acknowledges the deposit, then he has acknowledged the obliation.

8. If none of the above suits you, then make arrangements to allow Mr. Mathews to pay you back over time. 500 grains, you may not like it but the courts will come to that resolution at great expense to you, and you can do the same for yourself, free.

9. Powderman, you didn't tick me off, but re-read what you wrote. The legalities of this issue are the sole responsibility of the courts. Not yours and certainly not mine. You get real close to calling The Express whatever, and Mr. Mathews, felons and frauds. Not wise in these letigious times.

10. As for me, I will contact Mr. Mathews, and ask when I can expect the Rigby.

not

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

The BATF(Bad Attitude Towards Freedom) will just make Mathews life more of a living hell and then you will end up with nothing.

Do you have a recourse? Maybe/Maybe not, but the way you are going about it will only increase your chances of ending up with nothing.

Godd Luck, but think a little bit more before you get the government involved. Look at what they have done for guns and gunownership so far.

Also there is a thing my dad told me a long time ago that applies to your situation, "Buyer Beware."--------Chainsaw

500grains, from all you've said, and from all I know, it sounds like the people trying to make the Express Rifle Company a going concern are doing their best. As Bill says, they have acknowledged their responsibility to you. I don't think they are living high off the hog at your expense.

Teenut's death has thrown an extra monkey wrench in an already tough course of action. I know this does not help your pocketbook, but it's early days yet on how this will turn out.

Don

Of course since we are a long way away, additional caution is exercised.

However, I know a couple of other people on this board that are Americans who also had the "lets wait" attitude after a bit of checking.

You only have to look at some previous attempts (such as the Noreen action) to know that problems were there.

You only needed to have your eyes open with emnail correspondence with Robert to get the feeling that some rough water was still ahead.

These days too many people in both our countries expect the responsibility to be carried by others for the outcome of ventures that they may enter.

Mike

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deafdog@one.net.au
www.deafdog.one.net.au

Sorry to hear that you have not yet gotten the financial dealing with Mr. Barstow's survivors straightened out. It sounds to me like they do want to do so. I would think that you would give them a chance, since you are far more likely to get full restitution voluntarily than any other way. Small claims court would be a distant second.

Until today it would have been hard for me to believe that anyone on this board would call the BATF on anyone. They will not get you your money, they will probably be itching to kill someone just to prove they can do it and get away with it, and you have no idea what you are starting, or where it will stop. Are you safe? They'll possibly be looking at you, too.

They said they built one. They said they didn't have any license from the BATF and do not know when they might get it. I did not jump to any conclusion.

"If The Express whatever won't be liscensed to manufacture a barreled action .50 caliber or greater, then have
him build 2 actions to fit whatever cartridges you have in mind."

They are not licensed to build ANYTHING and do not know when, if ever, they will be.

"Maybe 500 grains, you can settle for a caliber under .50. "

Why? Shouldn't I get what I paid for or get a refund?

"If none of the above suits you, then make arrangements to allow Mr. Mathews to pay you back over time."

He has proposed that but has repeatedly failed to fulfill his promises.

It's real simple, it's chrystal clear and like the politicians in DC you have tried to make it mean something it doesn't. It doesn't make a flying flip what laws say, or regulations, BATF is in the wrong, they are nothing more than a treasonist enforcer of tyranny. It doesn't matter what morally corrupt politician signed stuff into law, it's wrong, and you are just as in the wrong to be asking the traitors to enforce laws for your gain. Yes it's your money, yest what is going on is wrong, but what you are saying in essence is I need government to protect my interest.

That train of thought is morally corrupt, you don't need government to settle your problem, sit down and discuss it. If it takes a year, it takes a year. I have had dealings with BATF in the past, they are crooked, corrupt, evil monsters. All the proof you need, has been in the news.

Your $1000 is so important you'd unleash that horrendous tyrannical monster named BATF? That is sad. I wouldn't do what you have planned to my worst enemy. It's a sad state of affairs when one must cry to government to help. Have you tried better business? How about calling him and telling him you are, set up a payment option. Look what you have done, you trashed him via the internet, your trying to shut him down, what does that gain you? You suppose the dead guys family handed over your $1000 in cash? My guess is he's jumping through government hoops to try to get back in the black, and your aim is to knock him into the red again.

In Liberty,

Steve

Of course a BATF raid on Mathew Smith and his business will not help me recover the money.
But are you guys asking me to protect him?

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 05-31-2001).]

I am not trying to cheap you out, I've just come through a divorce, so I have recently re-learned the definition of "Broke". I have no business buying new rifles right now, but I would hate to see any addition to ERC's problems.

I will ask you again, "What is the total cost of these barreled actions upon which you have a deposit?" I cannot assume any major debts right now, but I'd like to work this out if possible.

Don

Are you saying that since I sent a deposit voluntarily, it's my own fault?

That is a good reason for people not to order guns from a remote supplier, isn't it?

I ordered two barreled actions. They were to be double square bridge, rigby floor plate (4 round magazine box), super match grade stainless barrels. One was to be in 500 A-Square and the other in 585 Nyati. Price was $1750 each. Deposit was 30%.

My point is that it is easy for some people to tell me to take my medicine and to protect Mr. Smith from the BATF, but I don't see them stepping forward to take the hit.

Mr. Smith admitted he owes me the money and promised several times to repay it, but each promise has been broken.

I have had detailed discussions with the BATF and they told me that Mr. Bastow's original application for a manufacturer's license was withdrawn, and Mr. Smith has not made an application for a license.

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 05-31-2001).]

Pete

As I stated earlier, I have a deposit half of what you have on one barreled action that in reality may never be built. When Robert died, his passion and his dream may not survive his death. Given what I am sure is an extremely tight cash flow position, the company and the owner may have to direct their efforts in other directions to survive.

As for civil action, once jurisdiction is established, (its a pretty good bet you will have to file your claim in a Georgia small claims court), you will at best recover your deposit less court costs, less personal traveling expenses, and legal fees. At worst you will owe all of the above without the deposit.

If you convince the BATF to shut them down or not grant any license, you can be assured that you will not get any of your deposit back. The BATF will tell you straight out they are not a collection agency.

As long as the action or actions that were produced were not for sale or distribution, and could not be made fully automatic easily, there is no infraction. One can assume that there were at least one or two manufactured to prove up the design, and manufacturing processes, and maybe submit for a patent.

All of us have empathy for your situation, and some of us are even in the same boat. In reality, no one intent on defrauding the public out of their money would consider manufacturing firearms or pieces of firearms as a vehicle to bilk the public.

The alternatives I posed were offered in the spirit of you hopefully receiving something back for your deposit as opposed to nothing. Your curt responses to me and to others that don't agree with your reaction to the situation are unwarranted to say the least.

Aside from return of the deposit, you appear to have no other interest than to make somebody pay for some personal indignity you feel you have suffered.

Instead of trying to get others to do the dirty work, go to Georgia and get your deposit back yourself.

NOT

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

not have you lost your $1050, which isnt much considering everything.

you have lost something much more valuable...the respect of your peers, read there replys carefully,is that really worth $1050.

mitch,
lock this thread before it blows up in a war

Locking the thread is not going to solve this problem for 500grains or the Express Rifle Company.

His money has been taken, and he rightly believes he has been wronged, and wants either his order fullfilled, or his money back. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Other members might not agree with what he is planning to do - they of course have a right to their opinions too.

I think the suggestion of going to the Small Claims Court has some merit.

This is the only department of the government I would get involved in this matter.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Quite a few of us know 500 persoanlly and while some may not agree with him, I can assure you he is not some anti nut bent on world domination and the ruination of all gunsmiths.
Now everyone is watching you pal

500. Take him to whatever court it is to recover some of your money. You don't need the BATF.You have already nailed this guy good. Trust me, you have cost him a lot more than $1050 with your posts. I myself was looking at getting one of those huge actions when they started making them for my next project(maybe a 600nitro) so he has just lost $1500 that he could have had out of me alone.

Now just try and get some of your money back mate. That will sting him extra.

Karl.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 05-22-2001).]

It seems that I have nothing to gain by buying you out, since my only interest in buying you out was to prevent your going to the BATF. You now say you've already done that.

While I don't agree with Bill, I can sympathize a little with his attitude. Your actions have helped validate a bureau inimical to his livelihood and our way of life.

I still say that you've gained nothing by going to the BATF. You've only hurt everybody's chances of getting their money or their rifles.

Don

Bill i think that you really made your name in this forum by trying to stomp at 500.

The gun business maybe needs a bit of cleaning from gun companys that don't live up to their word.

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

Best .... Nick

And if Nicks wise approach fails, set the IRS
on them as well!!:-)

Pete

The BATF has informed me of the following:

1. It is not illegal to manufacture a firearm, other than a machine gun, as a prototype or for personal use (i.e., other than manufacturing firearms as part of a trade or business for profit). Therefore The Express Rifle Company's manufacture of a prototype rifle was not a violation of the law.

2. Robert Bastow filed an application for a manufacturer's license, but that application has been withdrawn, presumably after Mr. Bastow's death.

3. Neither The Express Rifle Company nor Mathew Smith has ANY type of license from the BATF or any application for a license pending.

Consequently, it appears that the Express Rifle Company has no intention of producing rifles or fulfilling orders at any time in the near future.

I admit I am angry. Mr. Bastow appeard in all respects to be a fine and admirable man with a great dream. Unfortunately, he is not with us. My complaint is with Mr. Mathew Smith and his false promises and false statements.

Karl,
All I did was ask a couple of questions and you jumped right in on the side of your friend, something I commend everyone for. Who was standing up for the manufacturer? One suggestion of wrong doing and we all get carried away. See the power of a few poorly chosen words.
My most sincere apologies to 500grains. I know he could not be a plant.
I do not condone wrong doing in any form, I disagree strongly with the involvement of the BATF in this situation.

Don,
My apologies to the board. My emotions run very high on stuff like this.
Bill

oops - two more quick things:
1) Karl, I thought the winking smiley face was perfect.
2) I was unaware of a pre-requisite number of posts.
Bill

That the owner of the company dies after a prolonged period of illness won't make it go any faster.

Lotsagrains, if I were you I'd grab a cold one and wait. But that's probably too late now, and yes - you're to blame for that.

-- Mats

I feel for 500Grains. I've been ripped off and had trouble collecting (not in the gun business) before, and it's extremely frustating. Being out of state makes it even more so. Not exactly like you can drive down to his shop and pop him in the nose!

I also feel for his frustration in waiting for product. The gunsmiths I know would be late delivering their corpse to their own funeral.

Keep your head up, 500grains! You might lose some time and money in this one, but remember "what goes around, comes around".

Good luck!

SamB