No hangfires. The powders I used were known to be good with low loadings.They were AR2206 and 2207(not sure of the hodgdon numbers). I didnt want to go too low because of the possibility of blowing up the gun from spontanious combustion or whatever it is called when low presure loads cause spiked presures. Faster powders are supposed to be less susceptible to this. I think the lowest I went was 65-66 gns but with the lighter bullets ,recoil was better. I used lower powder levels with 350 and 405 gn cast bullets as well. Accuracy wasnt great but there were no hangfires.

Ray,



Which loads are those? I posted none.



The reason I asked the question I did is I encountered all kinds of hang-fire issues when I was loading a 458 Win mag down to 1500 fps with 405 cast bullets! I experienced these issues while using IMR3031 and Rel 7 powders with CCI 200, Fed 210 and Fed 215 primers. IIRC the loads were in the mid 50 grains of powder range. Actually, I think the IMR3031 loads were hanging at ~ 59 or 59.5 grains! Muzzle velocities were not anywhere near 45-70 levels yet, either (around 1800 fps IIRC)



For the record, my 300 Win mag hang fires like hell with either the 150 gr Sierra or the 155 AMAX grain bullets and 65 grains of 4895 (either IMR or Hodgdon). Hodgdon lists their load for the 150 grain Sierra at 61 grains! I say NO THANK YOU HODGDON!!!



Personally, I hate loading down and consider it at best counter-productive and at worst down-right-stupid.



Seriously, if you cannot handle the recoil of a particular rifle/cartridge combination step down until you can!! There is nothing to be gained, in the real world that is, by shooting a rifle/cartridge combination you cannot handle!





By the way, someone stated that their 458 Lott kicked considerably harder than their 500 NE. IF that is indeed the case, there is no reason for that to be! The only possible explanations are:

1.) The 500 NE is way too heavy (ie it could be alot lighter)

2.) The 458 Lott is too damned light

3.) The 500 NE isn't loaded to tradition (570 gr at 2150 fps)

4.) There is one BAD stock on that 458 Lott (steel crescent butt plate immediately comes to mind)



The 500 NE loaded to the traditional levels (570 grain bullet at 2150 fps) generates 175.1 lbm-ft/sec of momentum to be absorbed by the rifle/shooter.



The 458 Lott loaded with a 500 grain bullet at 2250 fps (which is full power load) generates 160.7 lbm-ft/sec of momentum to be absorbed by the rifle shooter.



This means for the two rifles to have equivalent recoil velocities the 500 NE needs to weigh (correctly have a greater mass of) 9% more than the 458 Lott.



Keep in mind that this analysis does not consider the powder charge mass. If we take that into account, therefore being more realistic, the momentums are:



500 NE - 208.25 lbm-ft/sec



458 Lott - 187.71 lbm-ft/sec



Which means the 500 NE needs to have a mass which is 11% greater than that of the 458 Lott, just to have equivalent OBJECTIVE recoil. Objective is a key word in that sentence by the way.



So if the Lott weighs in at 9.5 pounds, a 500 NE with equivalent recoil would need to weigh 10.6 pounds (roughly).



For me anyway, objective and subjective recoil numbers usually correlate very well! In other words if the objective recoil is higher, when I shoot it the subjective recoil (felt recoil) feels higher to me also.



ASS_CLOWN

Thank you gentlemen, as always, your advice & suggestions are appreciated. I have some NorthFork 450's coming in, and will continue to work on my loads and recoil tolerance. Like others, by using different loads, I have visions of being able to use this gun on everything from deer and black bear to elephant and buffalo. Time will tell how this works out!

For some reason I have found that my .416 Rigby with 410 gr bullet at 2400 fps kicks more than my lott with 500 gr bullet at 2300 fps, I wonder if it is the heavier powder charge of the Rigby also contributes to recoil.

Bill,

I didn't notice before that the rifle still has the factory "pad" on it. Get a good pad on it pronto or throw a slip on pad to get you by in the mean time. The factory pad is better than a steel butt plate but that's it! The first time I shot my #1 Lott it was bone stock with no scope. With a pad and scope (I have a Leup 1.5-5 on mine) that helped out.

That being said with stout loads the Lott is not fun off the bench. I just returned from the range shooting the above mentioned Barnes X 450 above 82gr 4320. Although better than full house 500 grainers this load is indeed harsh off the bench (even with good upright form). Fifteen of these puppies is my limit. Get your rifle sighted in and get off the bench. I have the most fun with big guns during "plinking" sessions at a gravel pit. Busting rocks displays the awseome power of these rifles and is just a hoot

John

Ass Clown,
My post was to Bill C. who was using 72 grs. of IMR-4320 which is about 10 or 12 grs. short of max in a 458 Lott with a 500 gr. bullet....

Sorry if I confused anyone, just trying to get Bill C. on the right track, and loosen some of his teeth with recoil!!

IMR-4320 is the ONLY powder for the Lott IMO, no other will get you 2350 FPS within reasonalble pressure limits...84 grs. is the usual max load in most 458 Lotts, I have had a couple that wanted more and some that needed a little less...

I had one Lott with a 26" barrel that handled a good deal more powder just fine, and it had a fast barrel also, it would safly cook at 2500 plus a tad, but I chose to load that one down to 2300 as recoil was fierce...I had another that would not quite make 2300 with and took only 82 grs. of powder....but you have power to spare in the lott and 2200 will lay low the greatest of beasts...

Hi Bill,

You will find out that the 500 with 82grs of 4320 will bulge the case..I dropped to 450 Xbullets and will pattern them Saturday...
I have no problems with the 500Hornady solids and softpoints...450gr NorthForks load and shoot great...

Mike

Ray,
Thanks for clearing that up. Interesting that 458 Lott handles these down loads so much better than my 458 Win mags ever did. I wonder why that is, any thoughts?

Thanks,

ASS_CLOWN

Retrever,
I wonder why your getting a bulged case with 82 grs. of IMR-4320, or do you mean its bulging in your chamber...

There is some pretty big differences in 458 Lott reamers I have noticed..All the way from 2.75 to a full 3.00 in some cases..African smiths have now standardized a 3.00 version which I think is the best route...

My specs have all been 2.80 which is standard I believe, and it will take up to 86 grs, with a tap, without bulging when a 500 gr. bullet is seated, a Barnes X being the exception as the Barnes X will bulge a case. but that 86 gr. load is too hot for all but one rifle that I had..Most 458 Lotts max out at 84 grs. for about 2350 FPS.

My take on it was that the powder charge was so heavily compressed it would cause the case to bulge. Is this what was meant?

ASS_CLOWN

Okay...second trip, this time with the chrono & a gun rest to quantify things. Here are the results, average 3-shots (Ruger M77 Mark II 23" barrel):



78grns IMR-4320 w/500gr Barnes-X - 2080fps (practice load)

81grns IMR-4320 w/450gr NorthFork Softpoint - 2240fps

84grns IMR-4320 w/450gr NorthFork Softpoint - 2350fps

Hornady 500gr Factory Load (RN/FMJ) - 2250fps



The best grouping was by the NF 84gr load, three within an inch w/two overlapping at 100-yards, so this is the load I will concentrate on for a softpoint (although I could get a bit more out of it yet). They are a little trickier to load as the cannelure (in this case driving bands) are quite thin and requires a light crimp and uniform shell length. But like with my Win .416, the Ruger seems to like them. Now I need to find a 500gr solid. Thanks again.

Bill,
Did you have any problems seating the NF bullets in your .416? I use RCBS dies and tried to load up some370gr NF's the other day. The seating die is smashing the exposed lead on the bullet, giving it a "mushroomed" nose.

Anyone have this happen to them?

George - check which "seater plug" you are using. My RCBS die set came with two, and I have been using the "deeper" one (has the largest opening for the bullet tip) and never had a problem with the tips. The shallow plug could be a bit too tight.

I thought there must be another plug for it. Mine only had the one in the die. Guess I better call RCBS.

Thanks for the info.

Bill C,
Try this, Have your resizer button turned down about .003 or .004, and with your fairly compacted 84 grs of IMR-4320 that should solve that problem,,and add a very light crimp to that..just a tad of a crimp...

As to a solid, use a Woodleigh, they will work fine..The monolithics are simply too long unless your willing to sacrifice powder space and give up velocity, which is an option...Or use a 450 flat nose solid if you can find one..I bet GS Customs would cut you a few....

This once more makes a case for the new version of the LOtt that is popular in RSA, the 3 inch Lott..If I ever build another thats the reamer I will use...but that will probably not happen as I am more that satisfied with the 416 Rem and the 404 because I don't have that horrendous recoil to deal with....

George, I have a spare from a 2nd set I picked up if you need it, send me an email w/your address and I'll ship it to you.

Ray - thanks for the info, I'm sure a lot of ele were shot over years with Woodleigh.

My understanding is that most of the felt recoil happens when the bullet exits the muzzle and gas is vented forwards. Recoil can be reduced by using a faster burning powder that reduces muzzle pressure. Faster burning powder is better suited to lighter bullets and lighter bullets also contribute to reduced recoil if bullet momentum is reduced.

Bill,
Thanks, that would be great. How about a trade? Would you like a .600 OverKill case? I don't know if you collect ammo, but this would make a nice addition. Email on the way...

BillC,
Cut one grain to 83 grs. and it should come to POI with a solid....thats normal and works most of the time, but sometimes the same load or 2 grs less will do it...