The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores AR500 steel gongs with bigger guns?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I want to try some AR500 steel gongs and would like some feedback from people who have experience with them. From reading the various target suppliers websites they recommend the distances be longer (over 200 yards) and the velocities should be below 3,000 fps to get the plates to last longer and avoid surface cratering that will cause ricochets. In order to remain safe it sounds like you can’t be bending the gong or cratering the surface much - if at all. My goal is to be able to practice off hand at 100 yards with a gong using 300 magnums on up to 460 Wby. The manufactures recommend going thicker to get the plates to last longer. Most of them recommend ½” for rifles, but still act like bigger rifles will damage the plates at 100 yards. I’ve found one manufacture that offers AR500 plate in ¾” thickness. I’m not sure if that would help or not. Obviously the thicker plate would make it more resistant to bending, but if surface cratering from higher velocity/energy at 100 yards is the safety issue they’re recommending to avoid then it wouldn’t matter how thick the plate is if you’re damaging the surface with too much energy. It seems that in most of the reports I’m seeing people are only using .223 or .308 (or larger rifles at much longer distances). Can anyone offer experience with the AR500 steel targets at 100 yards using .300 mag, .338 mag, .375 mag., .416, etc.? How about Barnes bullets? I’m also seeing that for handguns they say that a 3/8” plate is safe at 25 yards, but again they don’t mention the larger hunting handguns. Has anyone tried full house .44 Mag or .500 S&W at 3/8” AR500 at 25 yards? And again, how about the all copper bullets? I’d hate to invest a bunch of money into plates and render them unsafe in the first few shots. Any experiences, good or bad, with larger calibers on AR500 plate at closer (safe) distances would be much appreciated. Thanks, Kyler | ||
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I've got a few dozen steel plates and targets of several types so this is my experience, nothing more..... The thing that damages them are velocity followed by bullet construction. 8000ft-lb with a hard cast lead bullet doesn't leave a dent or bend whereas 3800fps with a 50gn all copper bullet can sail right through. The next big factor is allowing the target to move a bit on impact. Just a little can greatly spread out the duration of the hit. In the same vane a 223 can be worse than a 450/400. Next is the safe distance to the target, and again I think this varies with bullet construction more than anything else. Steel jacket fragments can once in a blue moon travel amazing distances, so a slight downward angle is an advantage. It may be a little difficult in your neck of the woods, but I tested many of my pistol and subgun loads on steel in the winter after a fresh snow that will clearly show the "average" fragment zone. Unfortunately bullets that are good for big game hunting are (IMHO, such as swifts, partitions, monolithics, etc) generally too stout to use safely on steel at any hunting distance. It may be possible to come up with a good reduced velocity lead bullet load for each rifle for safer practice. Lastly, keep in mind that strange things can happen on occasion. In my office I have a 4 and 5/8 ounce paradox-shaped 4-bore conical that years ago passed through my target, grazed a 55 gallon steel drum down range, and ricocheted back to impact the dirt about 20 feet from where I shot. The physics of that event make ZERO sense to my brain and I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it, but I keep it as a reminder of how little I really know what can go wrong. My free advice is worth exactly what it cost  DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Adapt-overco me-simplify. Use old man hole covers. Pick them up at scrap wards. Use tie plates from the railroad. They have thousand lying around. Ask permission, of course. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Also take a look at the newer composite shoot through targets. They don't ring like a gong but they do swing and have little chance of ricochet and are a lot lighter to carry. For metal gongs, look for the ones rated for 50 BMG use. | |||
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I have a AR500 round target held by chains I shot with my .600ok. It broke the chains off but didn't pocket the plate. That was with a woodliegh soft point. With a .223 at short range they will definitely crater. I doubt you'll have any problem with a 460 wby at 100 yrds as long as you use soft points.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I use big truck leaf springs. Most junk yards will sell them at scrap prices. You can shoot them with just about anything up close and not do too much damage to them. I also use dirt pan blades that I get from scrap yard. | |||
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My backstop for handguns [to 44 mag] is 3/8" [ construction steel ,AR500 would be better] is set at 45* so they hit and ricochet down .At 25yds most bullets shatter. I found it a good idea to put angle pieces on the side to block spatter. Minimum distance should be 25 yds for handgun and 50 for rifle !!! Mine is 24"x36" about the smallest I think .Some people will miss ! I've never tried a swinging target but they take up some of the energy.Some handgun ranges have old tires but things can bounce off ,not good. The 25 yd minimum is there because bullets can bounce off steel also !Eye protection ! | |||
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Smart for asking these questions. Here's another odd one.... I have a few of the new self healing targets, the one I'm referencing is grapfruit sized and when hit rolls a bit or a lot depending on caliber. On occasion, I have shot this target with 22lr, 38, 357, 41mag, 223 and 450/400. While shooting this target at 20 yards with my 1911 I had one of the 450/400 bullets that was lodged inside the target get launched by the 45 round and wiz past me, hitting my truck only a few feet to my left. I caught the entire chain of events on video with a GoPro that was positioned looking back at me. Playing the video in slow motion is a real eye opener. Be careful and make sure targets are alwasy at a safe distance. Safari James USMC DRSS | |||
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I have a number of AR 550 plates, and some that are even harder. At 100 yards you will not have much of an issue, but any flat nose slug will dent the metal. I have seen this even with pure lead out of my 54 cal muzzleloader. Velocity is the killer of steel, 535 softs out of a Jeffery has blow through 1/2 AR 550 plate at 75 yards. Big bore pistols at 25's yards not much of an issue but still be aware their can be splash, just make sure there either angled down or swinging. Since I don't have my own range I am always setting up and breaking down, I found plant hanger hooks work quit well, or some built out of rebar, they allow the plate to swing freely. Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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That 450-400 bullet lodged in a foam target! It must have been a Woodleigh RN. | |||
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 Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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The target is made of some type of plastic and is very dense for its size. The 450/400 bullet that exited (previously stuck inside the ball shaped target) was a Hornady solid. Safari James USMC DRSS | |||
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That is for sure a real eye opener, glad it was only the truck! Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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Thanks for the advice. I know to allow the plates to move freely by making sure they're hanging and I'm also aware that angling them toward the ground is safer than perpendicular to the shooter. And while "wood" is a four-letter word when it comes to my construction skills - I'll avoid the metal frames to reduce the chances of ricochets. It sounds like rubber belting is also safer than chains or bars for hanging. Thanks, Kyler | |||
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When is it going to be ready? When do I get come down? Is Jamie making coffee? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Hey Mike, It's a longer term project, but I hope to have a few plates hung up at some point. You're welcome to give them a try when I get it done. Kyler | |||
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is it going to be in Parkfield? up high? down low? Doug's place? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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3/8" AR500 hit with 400 grain lead bullets at 2400 fps out of a 458 Lott at 25 yards:  | |||
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Ouch hawk, it's lucky you didn't catch some shrapnel that close. Today I got my questions answered by someone at one of the larger target manufactures (Nevco). The gentleman was very helpful, but it sounds like I'm asking too much of these steel targets for the energy and distance I'm dealing with. He said that larger bore guns at just 100 yards will likely bend even the thicker plates and possibly crater the surface. It sounds like the copper bullets (like Barnes) will crater them pretty bad at that distance. He also recommended against the faster varmint guns at just 100 yards as they will crater the AR500 also. He said I would damage the plates with magnum pistols at just 25 yards too. So as I was concerned that shoots down my whole idea of a practice field with the plates. It sounds as though even good steel plates just need to be further away to keep from damaging them and all copper bullets are too hard on the steel. I've got to rethink what I was hoping to do. | |||
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