I know these big 375, 416, 458, 505,etc are for hunting big dangerous game, but has anyone here ever used or know of an incident where one of these cannons were used against a person? I imagine you would have no lack of stopping power with these.

Just curious.

Watch an old Clint Eastwood movie where he uses a .458 Magnum against a bad guy.

It's one of his first movies featuring the 44 mag handgun.

The .458 was used in "Dirty Harry" -- and he missed!

The original Dirty Harry, about 1970?
Winchester M70 XTR pushfeed 22" barreled "African" model. Of course that was fictional rooftop sniping in the hunt for the "Scorpio" psychopath.
Very fitting for a cop who made the 6.5"-barreled S&W M29 .44 Mag his concealed-carry duty revolver.

One well known Zim PH is reputed to have killed 5 terrorists with a 458 in their brush war.

465H&H

Not on topic but some of you might find this interesting

Back in the 1970's I had some 12 bore FN cartridges. The slightly reduced from standard diameter case was cardboard with an aluminium sleeve which brought the diameter to standard size. I asked the gunsmith from whom I bought them why the sleeve? He told me thay had been manufactured for use in Africa against terrorists. The sleeve was said to keep the cases standard size in the hot and steamy jungle.
True or not I don't know but they were very good cartridges with which many a fox was shot. Not one fox ever regained its feet.
If memory serves there were eight shot in eack load.

rent the movie "zulu"... its about the british using martini's defending rork's drift....something like 20k rounds expended at 4000 zulu warriors....

Cliff Walker got a poacher with his .416- that worked. A pro guide in chisarira National park shot a poacher in the head with a .416 (solid). The poacher dropped his rifle and ran off leaving a chunk of brain about half the size of my fist lying about 5 paces behind where he was shot. He made it about 70m, and the local police called in forensics as they couldn't believe that a man could run off with such a head wound - they assumed the scene had been tampered with- and the verbal evidense of a dozen photographic clients not sufficient.

Charlie Haley did the case- and yes, the poacher ran off leaving the unsued portion of his brain behind.

I know of several other incidents including one where a client took a poacher on a lion bait with a .375 (the PH was bussy shooting at other members of the gang). If I wondered into the balistics office in Harare, I could probably dig out a dozen cases suring the Rhino war alone.

I've seen some bizzare results from people lobotomizing themselves in botched suicide attempts so the brainless fellow running around is quite believable.

Not necessarily fact but, in Ruarks "Something of Value", our erstwhile hero hunted Mau Mau with a .416 Rigby.

i can remember in nam the tank guys sniping off guys with 105's - guess that counts as a big bore

But ya gotta remember, in a declared war those big guns are not allowed to be used on personnel per Geneva Convention. That's why my buddies and i aim for the pistol belt, helmet, or any other equipment that happens to be hanging around.

quote:

Originally posted by nkonka:
But ya gotta remember, in a declared war those big guns are not allowed to be used on personnel per Geneva Convention. That's why my buddies and i aim for the pistol belt, helmet, or any other equipment that happens to be hanging around.

Calros Hathcock USMC in Nam used a 50 BMG for a kill, forgot what the exact range was though.

John

A 90mm AP (solid) was used to take out a sniper
in Korea. I scored a dirrect hit with a M-79 HE
at 60 yds.

Ann, I know what you mean. In 2002 I got a call on a suicide. The choice of weapon was good, a 12 ga. but this idiot got the angle wrong and just took the front of his face off. It happened in the back bedroom of 14x70 trailer home. So the dumbass shoots his entire face off but its not instantly fatal. He was able to walk the length of the hall up to the living room before he fell over and died. I bet he thought " damn this shit hurts " .........................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by nkonka:
But ya gotta remember, in a declared war those big guns are not allowed to be used on personnel per Geneva Convention. That's why my buddies and i aim for the pistol belt, helmet, or any other equipment that happens to be hanging around.

Calros Hathcock USMC in Nam used a 50 BMG for a kill, forgot what the exact range was though.

John

2500yds, comes to mind.

Keith

The rules of war just say no bullets designed to expand, so big bores with solids would be perfectly okay to use. Just couldn't use soft nose expanding bullets, though I doubt that a 500 or 577 soft nose bullet designed for use on elephants or rhino would expand much as it went through a person.

Doubt the Geneva Conventions as obsolete as they are apply to poachers.

I cannot imagine someone taking a direct hit from one of those and living, but I guess it happens. Because these rounds would go through a person, would they be less effective than something like a 223 that supposedly tumbles and fragments when it hits something?

Lord Roxton commented on using a .470 double against rebels in Doyle's "The Lost World".
Fiction yes.
But pretty neat.
And of course, who can forget Allan Quatemain?
All fiction, but nonetheless true, as to what the old hunters would have had at their disposal in the old days.

I'd rather get shot with a .458 than with a .270 Winchester using ballistic tips.

It is the Hague Conventions, Declaration III that covers the expanding bullets.

The Geneva Conventions cover the humane treatment of wounded, prisoners and villages during conflicts.

quote:

Originally posted by DZ:
It is the Hague Conventions, Declaration III that covers the expanding bullets.

The Geneva Conventions cover the humane treatment of wounded, prisoners and villages during conflicts.

And IIRC, it only binds those nations which are signatories to the pact. One might want to check and see IF & WHEN the U.S. signed on to either agreement.

Though I am a bit surprised about the Terr who lost part of his brain running off, strange things do happen. I once repsonded to a call near Gilroy, California where a Basque farm hand had tried to commit suicide and failed. For some reason he feared he was about to be fired and deported home.

In a desparate funk, he took a spike and drove it into his right temple with a rock, then crawled under the barn to die. It went in crooked and the point of the spike came out atop the bridge of his nose between his eyes. He lived qnd didn't even lose any vision. Nor, thank goodness, did he lose his job.

"Declaration III on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body" adopted at the First Hague Peace Conference of (29 July) 1899 which states:

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Although not a party to this accord, as a matter of policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one century ago.

Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states: Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states:

"...it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

M-118LR In observance of this, for many years U.S. Military snipers went afield with M-118 ammo, a 7.62 X 51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail round manufactured to much closer tolerances than M-80 "ball."

quote:

I'd rather get shot with a .458 than with a .270 Winchester using ballistic tips.

I would think the Remmy 405gr @ 2500 would be about the same, only bigger and messier.

As to the Hague Conventions, it does not apply to BG hunters protecting their lives. So shoot as needed.

Keith

quote:

The poacher dropped his rifle and ran off leaving a chunk of brain about half the size of my fist lying about 5 paces behind where he was shot. He made it about 70m,

How many have seen the video tape from Iraq showing an "insurgent" charging some Marines firing his AK and being hit dead center just above the belt buckle by a 40mm grenade? The lower part of his body, hips down, kept on running for another ten yards or so before collapsing to the ground. Nothing remained of the guy's body above the hips.....40mm, now that's a BIG BORE!

There is another film floating around on the internet shooting ragheads with a 50 BMG at 2000 plus yards and those boys came apart in chunks..

I suspect that the human body is too tender to make a big bore soft open up and it would simple drill a caliber size hole most of the time and that would not ordinarily be a quick kill perhaps..same for a solid..but death would probably be a matter of running out of blood in most cases.

I think the 45-70 was used successfully against a few Indians and Spaniards.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
There is another film floating around on the internet shooting ragheads with a 50 BMG at 2000 plus yards and those boys came apart in chunks..

Ray
I think that it was proven that while a 50BMG was the gun used in that video, the targets were actually rabbits, and the location was in NZ.

Big bore rifles probably played a role in all the revolts/uprisings in Africa during colonial rule.

I've seen those videos; increible! i suspect they were using raufus (explosive)rounds. Anyone with personal experience on AR?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
There is another film floating around on the internet shooting ragheads with a 50 BMG at 2000 plus yards and those boys came apart in chunks..

I suspect that the human body is too tender to make a big bore soft open up and it would simple drill a caliber size hole most of the time and that would not ordinarily be a quick kill perhaps..same for a solid..but death would probably be a matter of running out of blood in most cases.

During 67-68 in Nam, there were any number of snipers from all services that were pulling the full-jacketed bullet, reweighing powder charges, and seating 168gr Sierra MatchKings.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I'd rather get shot with a .458 than with a .270 Winchester using ballistic tips.

The 270 loaded with the Speer 100gr HP would be worse.............

I know of a gentleman in Zimbabwe who put a 375 solid through a door frame and through a burglar from about 10 feet away. Bad guy went down, got up and fled, never to be found. Blood trail washed out once he left the house. Impossible to know where he was hit.

I, too, have seen several "attempted" suicides with large bore guns wherein the individual flinched at the last moment and botched the shot. Flinching during the act of shooting ones self is not uncommon.

Lots and lots of men have been dumped over the last decade with the 50BMG round. Impact is usually characterized by the target being lifted vertically and rotated sometimes as much as 360 degrees.

Impacts on human targets by 12ga slugs are more unpredictable than one might think. Sometimes they knock the target flat, sometimes they simply punch straight through and the target displays a delayed reaction. The impact of a full load of buck shot at close range is, however, much more dramatic. And immediate.

A friend of mine told me a historie,about an old ph who killed some mau maus in Kenia with his express .Here in Argentina during the war agains terrorism in the 70s ,this communists stole one of the express of a good friend of mine and then killed a cop who was protected by a tree ,i saw the photo of the policeman and the bullet mde an incredible damage.Juan

Big bores in combat? Remember that in the last half of the 1800s almost every military cartridge qualified as a big bore, including the "diminutive" .45-70 Government. There was a host of 11mm and larger black powder rifle cartridges, all closely related to or parents of the "big bore" hunting cartridges, and remember the hassle in India that prevented civilian use of .45 caliber rifle rounds because of the military use thereof. Yeppers, there have been a lot of big bore rounds sent down range at other two legged foes.

LLS

Here is an account of the Plevna Delay.

Wholesale use of big bores at loooong range.

Plevna Delay

Those exploding terrorists, are rock chucks beeing shoot with a 75grain V-max from a 6mmAI, 3700fps I belive.

You can buy their dvds at www.rmvh.com

God videos by the way!

Lets not for get the two Canadain Snipers whom saved the Rangers collective butt on the ridge in Afgan, both used a Barrett 50 and broke Hathcock's record from Nam, %0's where used in Korea as well, In RVn I saw used the 50 and and 375 H&H that belong to a SAS type from NZ, they all so used the 12 bore with special loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by nkonka:
But ya gotta remember, in a declared war those big guns are not allowed to be used on personnel per Geneva Convention. That's why my buddies and i aim for the pistol belt, helmet, or any other equipment that happens to be hanging around.

Calros Hathcock USMC in Nam used a 50 BMG for a kill, forgot what the exact range was though.

John

I seem to recall 2100. Shot the front forks off a bicycle ridden by a kid loaded down with ordinance because he didn't want to shoot the kid. Kid hit the dirt and started shooting an AK in his general direction, so Hathcock blasted him with the second round. Check the book "Marine Sniper" for details. I think I got it right, but I gave the book away a long time ago.