Hi. I have an old BRNO 602 (yes, safety operates backwards...:-( ) in 458 win that I will convert to Lott. In Norway where I live (and I think in many African countries) it is legal to hunt with a silencer. The reason is that it prevents the hunters curse; tinnitus, the ever beeping sound in your ear after repeated loud bangs... I have a silencer on my 22-250, make it sound like a .22LR. It also reduces the recoil drastically, makes a .338 into a .308 approx, which would be of importance in the 458 Lott. I have two questions for you: 1. I would like to shorten the barrel in order to maintain some balance to the gun. What do you think would be the minimum length of the barrel for not loosing too much velocity? That is, at what length would velocity start to fall drastically?
2. Anyone know the laws in SA, Tanzania and Zim, is it legal to use the silencer there?
Thanks

I thought that to be effective that the silencer worked best on a sub sonic projectile?

I don't think a 458 Lott would qualify? Wouldn't you need something like a. . . . .never mind!

The silencer can come back around the barrel to minimize the length. If you cut it too short with that much powder you will likely have a very dirty supressor in short order. MartyW on this site can probably help you if you contact him.

They make suppressors that work on 50 BMG so I'm pretty sure there's something that will work for you.

Rusty, they don't do much for the sonic boom but the ones I've shot attenuate supersonic loads to the point it doesn't hurt the ears. Some of the market meat hunters use suppressed 300 Win Mags.

I hunted steenbok in RSA with a silencer equipped 22-250. It was the PH's and he is a citizen and resident of RSA, so they are legal there. Not sure about importing it though.

FWIW,

-Steve

There is a company in Finland named BR Tote that sells a type of suppressor called a reflex suppressor. They make suppressors for the 338 Lapua Magnum and 50 BMG. Your gass volume will be closer to that of the 338, and it would be lighter as well. I'm sure they could adapt one for you. the reflex design is not as efficient as the more modern suppressors. It is, however, adequate to you needs. It is also a fairly light design. Forget about using iron sights though.

It will greatly decrease the rate and velocity of gas ejection from your bore. It will not eliminate the supersonic crack of the bullet. At 680 m/s your bullet won't have a loud crack. The recoil will be reduced 45% or so, and the blast and noise effects to you and the trees around you will be less.

Here is the website: http://guns.connect.fi/rs/contact.html

Send a picture

lawndart

For something that is illegal without a special license in the US, there is a lot of information available on them.

There are some hard and fast rules available for silencers, as I am sure you are aware in a country where they are required instead of being illegal.

The first is that the bigger they are, the more effective they are, assuming reasonable design. Many designs work, but to get a lot of reduction you need a lot of volume.

Second, they all need to be cleaned, and cleaned pretty often. Be sure whatever kind you buy that it can be disassembled for cleaning.

They're not completely illegal as I'm sure you know, just a PIA to own. You can build one for yourself in the USA but you have to number it and report it within 24 hrs of it legally becoming a silencer. Someone will know for sure but I think your one home-made one is exemt from the $200 tax.

My understanding is that as an individual you have to file a form 1 with the ATF along with a check for $200. When it is approved you can then proceed to manufacture your suppressor. Tiggertate, I think what you are talking about is if you already are a licensed SOT class 3 manufacturer. It is illegal for an individual to manufacture a suppressor without an approved form 1.

Thank you for your replies. Silencers are indeed legal in my country. In non-subsonic velocities they reduce/eliminate the bang from the gunpowder, but not the sound of the bullet breaking the sound barrier. My smith use one on his 375 H&H, resulted in decreased recoil by approx 50%, increased presiscion and noise reduction was exellent. I know that open sights are out of the question, but it would also mean that I can get a sturdy scope like the Leupold 2.5 fixed for shooting without the silencer, and a larger scope for shooting with reduced recoil due to the silencer. Hmmm, something to think about. However, the cost in Norway will approach 800 to 1000USD.... A lot of dough for this experiment...

M16 is correct, I believe, on the regulations. It is illegal to even own silencer parts if you don't have the form 1.

Guys,
I would have to look in the safe to be sure, but I have either 7 or 8 right now. Pay your $200.00 and send in a fingerprint card and passport photos. It's very simple.

The technology has improved greatly. You don't have to dissassemble them to clean nowadays. They don't need to be cleaned that often because of the newer designs. I just put mine in the dishwasher every few years.

They are legal to own in most every red state. That is because the government knows that you can't trust a Democrat with anything that is so useful or so much fun.

If anyone is serious about getting one (or a dozen), give me a pm or e-mail noak@direcway.com

I can tell you what works and what doesn't. Also who make the good stuff and who makes the shit.

lawndart

Looks like most of all the bases are already covered. WRT to the US, Form 1 is possible, and if you go the "corporate" route even easier as it no longer requires CLEO sign off, which can be a problem for folks in places like Houston ... you can build your own once the paper work is in place

As to the question at hand, suppressing the 458 Lott and barrel lengths. First off, suppressing a large bore, big case cartridge has its own challenges, as the large bore diameter makes it difficult to "force" the gas to encounter the baffles and not simply go the path of least resistance. The Lott has as advantage a high MAWP which helps as it means energy is available.

Second, shortening the barrel. With ANY cartridge you should tune the load to the barrel length, just as I would not use 50BMG powder in loads that are going into a short barreled rifle. The high MAWP of the Lott will allow you to tailor the loads quite effectively to a shorter barrel without losing too much velocity. Besides, 600 gr arriving on target at 1000 fps will not be much less lethal than if it were to arrive at 1400 fps .... trust me, we can attest to the lethality of these heavy slugs at low(er) velocities (as could countless American Bison, if they could still talk ...) Also, load tailoring means complete combustion and that means less fouling of the suppressor. This is one of the sources of "they get really dirty" comes from - loads for 24" barrels fired in SBRs with suppressors ...

I have been conversing with a gentleman in Norway who builds his own and has good results with them. For your application, I would go with a semi-integral design, it affords more volume without too much extra length. Volume is our friend in the world of suppressors. Due to the relative high pressure, you need a well built suppressor. You could even take one built for a 50 BMG and simple use it, it would be built to withstand anything the Lott throws at it. You will loose some effectiveness due to the larger exit hole (.510 versus .458 PLUS clearance) but not enough to warrant a custom build.

Disassembly can be a plus, as it allows replacing worn/damaged components depending on the design (erosion of the first baffle, etc).

HTH

Gentlemen..

Interesting discussion..
I am not familiar with the use of silencers, but I find the topic most interesting.

Just to get the correct "picture"!!
What kind of "loss of energy" are we talking about when using silencers?..there must be some reduction of muzzle velocity and muzzle energy?

I understand that recoil is reduced as well..

thanks in advance

// Voyager

ps: what does MAWP means??

Hi MartyW. This is realy useful. Could you PM me the username of the Norwegian that is building his own silencers? Seems like someone I should talk to

This is my silenced 22-250
Here with a little fox I shot the opening day of the fox season. One difference while hunting with the silencer is that I can clearly hear the impact. This little fellow was shot with 55 grains V-Max at 1100 f/s, and it sounded like a balloon popping... As you can see, the silencer builds backwards on the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by justanothernorwegian:
Hi MartyW. This is realy useful. Could you PM me the username of the Norwegian that is building his own silencers? Seems like someone I should talk to

Since you have a Hausken silencer on your rifle I don't see why You need any other information. He makes the best, lightest silencers in Norway. Or, you could go with a Reflex silencer, also imported to Norway by Artemis AS. Both would work on your Lott. I can not see if anybody has answered about barrel length, personally I would not go below 20", if shorter you might as well keep it as a WinMag.

I will contact Hausken, vbery satisfied with the one I got. Need to find out if it is legal to bring and hunt in Africa though. I have just hunted once in Africa, in Tanzania, and I discovered that the paper pushers are buissy there. I do not want to bring, or use, anything remotely illegal into that country. Will query their embassy

quote:

What kind of "loss of energy" are we talking about when using silencers?..there must be some reduction of muzzle velocity and muzzle energy?

Sound becomes heat.

The suppressor Marty is referring to is made by A-tec in norway.

It is superior to Hausken in workmanship, noise reduction and size.

The first series of it will hit the market soon. Most earlier units have been custom made one at a time, but demand has increased so longer series will be run from now.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

quote:

What kind of "loss of energy" are we talking about when using silencers?..there must be some reduction of muzzle velocity and muzzle energy?

Sound becomes heat.

Actually, suppressors do NOT reduce velocity but cause it to go UP. So called Free Bore Boost, it can screw up what you thought were subsonic loads. The suppressor holds pressure on the system longer thus imparting more energy on the bullet. This BTW is only true for bolt guns. In semi auto guns, the bolt will have started unlocking and you get that all-annoying "ejection port signature" which can make all the work you put into your suppressor null and void as the racket coming out of that hole is tearing up your ear drums ... that, and blow back from the direct gas impingement system when using ARs can be something to ruin your day.

The only "loss" that occurs is when you take a normal rifle that usually fires standard rounds, say a 308 lobbing 168s at 2600 fps and put a subsonic round in it. This now gives you less energy, but the trade off is more silence. Depending on operational requirements, utmost silence is preferred, and it is surprising how dead things get even with "slow" bullets

Hey Marty,
What do you think of those "Gasbuster" charging handles from PRI? I wear glasses all the time anyway, but have gotten some blowback from my SPR clone.
Thanks.
lawndart

PS My above comment addressed energy only, not velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Hey Marty,
What do you think of those "Gasbuster" charging handles from PRI? I wear glasses all the time anyway, but have gotten some blowback from my SPR clone.
Thanks.
lawndart

PS My above comment addressed energy only, not velocity.

As muzzle energy is a direct relation to muzzle velocity, the free bore boost also boost muzzle energy. Again, the only losses occur when the loads are altered to be subsonic. Firing the same ammunition in the same rifle with a suppressor will raise velocity and therefore energy ... the sound energy that normally is emitted from the muzzle is turned into heating of the suppressor PLUS some more imparted to the bullet. Sound is a function of temperature to the 4th power, slowing down the gas and cooling it drops the energy and this is what makes things quiet. This is also why "wet medium" suppressors often can be more quiet as they offer a means of quenching the gas with a sacrificial material such as water, field expedient urine, grease in some cases. BUt we are getting too deep into the technology.

Also, beware the suppressors WILL affect point of impact, shifting it.

Gas busters - a must with cans on the AR, I shoot with glasses WITHOUT exception (had too many things get in my eyes already) Try putting a can on an AR side charger ... yuck!

Thanks for the +1 on the Gas Buster.

I will especially heed that advice when I get ready to put one on my AR-10!

LD

Justanothernorwegian,

Have a talk to Christopher at Artimis AS (tel. +47 24 11 86 98)

As far as I know, the BR Reflex is available in anything up to, and including 50BMG, and are used by several countrys military forces which goes to show that they are quality products.