...I'm not sure which to get. I would use it for larger North American game and someday an African trip (I wish). Plus, I would do a lot of target shooting with it in the desert, as I do with all my other calibers. No bench rest....

I have read ALL of the 416-related posts on this board and I have learned a lot (also gotten pretty confused, but that's OK!).

Here is my criteria:

1. I don't want to spend a fortune on a custom gun....less than $1000, I guess.

1A. I want a NIB gun with papers.

2. I am not worried about the weight of the gun, meaning if it is relatively heavy that's OK.

3. I am a competent reloader and plan to reload the 416's.

4. I prefer the controlled feed of the cartridge.

So far, I have tried the Winchester 70 in 416 Rem Mag and the CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. The Winchester seemed like a better built gun, but I haven't seen too much posted here on the opinions of the Winchester action. I have seen a lot of positive posts about the CZ action. Any thoughts here?

I don't really like the CZ stock. I have long arms and they seem awkward on that gun. The Winchester stock seemed to be much more straight back into my shoulder.

After all that, I guess my real question is: how do you all feel about the Win 416 Rem MAg vs. the CZ 550 416 Rigby vs. whatever else is out there new for under $1000?

Thanks!

I have talked to people who have had the 416Rem. in the Winchester rifle and they say it is very accurate (clover leaf groups and such). I think the Winchester mod. 70 action is the best action ever made, period. For a new rifle under $1000 I don't think you can beat it. I think it's the best buy on the market. I also think their custom rifles are a real value. At the safari conventions for the last 2 years , Winchester has been offering great deals on these and their booth is always crowded.
For a little more money you can get a Ruger 77 in 416 Rigby. I have one and it is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. The action is also controlled feed but not as slick as the Winchester. The iron sights are better though.
Go with the Winchester and let me know how it shoots. Maybe someone that has one of these will post a reply on the accuracy. Be sure to check the iron sights out on the Winchester. The stock is just a little too high for me. Some people find it's just fine though.
Good shooting,
Terry

Also the 3 position safety on the Winchester is nice too. I don't think the CZ550 has this.
I think I better retract my statement about the "best action ever built, period". The best I have ever seen is Reimer Johansen's mauser action. I think it is the finest magazine rifle I have ever seen. Very pricey though. I'll just say I think Winchester is best action for the money and probably works just as good as the mauser.
Thanks,
Terry

The CZ550 is a heavier and stronger action than the M70. That being said it really depends on what you want or think looks better. Both of these rifles will shoot and perform well.

I personally have not shot a Winchester with their new stock design. I owned two M70 both post 64 Supergrades in 458 WM and the stock was terrible from the recoil standpoint. I am too tall for the 13.5" LOP these stocks had and worse yet the pistol grip was to tight so I punched the trigger guard with ever shot.

Make sure you check how the stock fits. The Bavarian style on the CZ will promote muzzle flip for sure. You can get an Express style McMillan stock for the CZ, which would bring the price of the CZ up to about $1000.00.

Todd E

Todd,
Interresting statment, I was not aware the CZ was stronger than the M-70 Win..what do you base that statement on...I would consider them equal...

I would choose the rifle that fit me the best and the one I liked between the CZ, Ruger M-77 Safari and the M-70....

My choice would be the M-70...Fit and finish is better, trigger is better and I like the safty best of all...but thats just my choice and I don't speak for anyone else..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

I based my statement off of the locking lug load bearing area and the diameter of the reciever ring. Both of these are significantly larger with the Magnum CZ550 than a M70. The Magnum is the only CZ variant available in 416 Rigby. I do not have the data readily available, but I can dig it up and post it if you like. Basically, I have a comparison bench mark between a "Magnum Mauser", a CZ 550 and a M70. I put the magnum mauser in parenthesis becuase I do not know which magnum mauser it is and you know each one of the commercial manufacturers seemed to tweak the design slightly.

I agree with you though Ray. In the end get the gun you like the looks of and fits you the best.

Thanks a lot for your replies.

Do you guys have an opinion about how often a 416 Rigby case can be reloaded vs. a 416 Rem Mag case, assuming average operating pressures for both?

Is resizing (case trimming or neck reaming) necessary in one more than the other?

I wonder: do the much higher chamber pressures in the Rem Mag cause faster wear and tear on the chamber, bolt, etc.?

I am just trying to see if there is a cost comparison after I get whichever gun is choose.

Thanks again!

fvdwg98,

I cannot tell you anything about the Remington mag. I have routinely gotten to 7 reloads in my 416 Rigby with both Federal and Norma brass. I load my Rigby to Weatherby levels (2680fps with 410 Woodleigh). After several firings the primer pockets get a little loose so I discard them.

Hope that helps some,
Todd E

I have a win70 in 416 rem mag and believe that,for the money,it can't be beat.Reliable,accurate and reasonably well fitted.Stock fit is subjective and you'll have to get your own impressions through handling.In my area,they go for around 800 bucks.You asked about case life and I haven't noticed any difference between this and any other bottle neck case.Brass for the 416 rem is certainly cheaper than the rigby and if 400 gr.at 2400 fps is good enough,and it is for me,then I would go with the rem.

From your assumptions it seems to me that your best bet is the 416 Rem Mag in Win 70. I got one and am very happy with it. The performance/price ratio is very good. Accuracy is 1-2 MOA depending on the loads; for me that is plenty. I have taken it to Africa 3 times and have not had any pressure or ejection problems. To me, the 416 "anything" is the ideal one-rifle for Africa. If you are a 400gr, 2400f/s guy like I am, you will not need more than the 416 Rem. if you plan shooting the big 5...

I usually stop reloading after 8 reloads from Remington brass. I could probably get more, as I do not notice any of the usual danger signs, but I like to play it safe. Despite what you sometimes hear, you can usually get relatively cheap 416 RM brass. You can also fireform 375 H&H brass into 416 RM. The factory stuff is also much cheaper than the Rigby�s, and the rifles in 416 Rem can get away with a "375H&H length" action versus a larger and heavier action that the Rigby needs.

Antonio

If you decide on the Winchester try to buy one where you can look at 2 or 3. I have seen quite a few of the first run of these rifles and frankly the wood to metal fit is really crappy on some of them and some are ok. If you can get one with an ok stock you'll probably want the trigger worked on and maybe glass bedded later.
The scope I would pick would be a matte Vari X Leupold 1.5X 5 with heavy duplex. Lots of eye releif and I like the heavy duplex better than the German reticles ,personally. Set this scope on some Talley's or Leupold lever rings. I have both Talleys and Leupold rings on different rifles and I like them both, being a little partial to the Leupold's. However the Talleys look a little stronger and they might be the best for the 416. Lever rings are great to have when hunting buffalo.
The rifles sell for $850-$870 in my part of the country.
Their is quite a bit of information about the 416 Rem and 416 Rigby going on in another thread on this site.
Terry

Another thing,

You will love reloading the 416, it is not nearly as picky as some of the smaller calibers!
JB

fxdwg98...check out the classified board...a deal on a .416 Rigby.

Hi JB,

why?

What's the problem with reloading .416 Rigby?

Cheerio

Kwagga

Kwagga,

I meant this: I'm used to reloading 300 win mag and smaller. Some of the smaller cartridges can be a bit finicky about O.A.L.
and case length. The 416 Hoffman I just loaded and shot over the weekend for the first time. It would chamber and extract
and feed perfectly with the bullet just barely seated in the case neck (so the O.A.L.
was 3/8" or more to long)
Also, the changes in O.A.L. did not seem to effect the grouping on the target.
On smaller calibers, I have seen a dramatic change in the groups by adjusting this dimension.

I know nothing of the 416 Rigby.
Except the case is larger!
JB

fxdwg98

Take a look at www.champlinarms.com
Go to the "gun vault" and do a 416 search.
Have a look at the Winchester custom shop
Model 70 in 416 rem mag. It is "semi-custom",
whatever that means, but it feeds and shoots
great. Mine will shoot under an inch all day
with Remington factory 400 gr A-Frames.
The price ($1800-1900) is higher than what you indicated, but for me the fit, balance
and smoothness of the action was worth the
money.

Good luck in your search
Wes

Thanks again to everyone for all of your replies. I have been researching everything that has been posted here and I have learned so much.

A few more questions:

Do you think a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby needs to be bedded? I am leaning in the direction of this rifle because it seems to be a good "entry-level" cost-effective 416 that I can practice on (shooting and reloading). However, I am still looking at others like the Ruger and Win70 Rem Mag as many have suggested. It's just that the dealers here don't have too much inventory of these guns or anything similar to get a feel for the stocks and LOP....

Have you ever dealt with the seller "ton80" on gunbroker.com? He has a lot of CZ 550's for about $549 with shipping included....I have bought several things from reputable dealers on gunbroker.com and auctionarms.com but I have never purchased anything from this guy (he is near Atlanta).

I have always dealt with MidSouth Shooter's Supply (in Tenn) for my reloading equipment and components, except for what I pick up at the pathetic gun shows that come to New Mexico. Is there another supplies dealer that sells Rigby brass and .416 cal bullets that I should look into? No dealers here have these dies or bullets. Of course, they say "we can get it for you" but then it becomes so much cheaper to order off the miracle that is the Internet.

Thanks again!

Dear DWS---

I checked out the Champlin Arms site and the stainless Win 70 is sweet! Thanks for the heads-up.

If I wanted a .416 and I was willing to settle for about 2200-2300 fps, I would get the Model 70 for about $789 new in the box. Reports are that the pressures are just a bit too high when trying to get 2400 fps from a 416 rem mag.

But if I wanted more power, like 2500 to 2600 fps, I would go with the Rigby.

Also, those big giant Rigby cases just look cool.

The CZ definitely should be steelglass bedded. It probably ought to be cross-bolted, too, but several smiths believe that the bedding is sufficient. It certainly has done well in my .450 Rigby and it kicks appreciably more. I can't help you with dealers reputation, though.

FXD,
Your confused over nothing, absolutly nothing, your comparing apples to apples, Brown to Brown, and horse turds to horse turds.....

Get the one YOU want, it's not confusing, your makeing it so....Both are equal in every respect, end of story...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Any 416 should be full action glass bedded and cross bolted (unless you like buying stocks). Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. Also, there needs to be about a 1/32" space between the inletting and the tang to ensure that you do not get contact there during firing. With the big guns inletting and bedding are crucial!

Todd E

FXD,
I have purchased several rifles from Phil, aka "ton 80". I travel through Atlanta about once a quarter and always stop by his shop and usually leave with a new toy. I have always had good experiences dealing with him. I guess the ton 80 comes from when he was Ga State dart throwing champ. Cobalt

todd,
I have to disagree that a 416 or 404 has to be glass bedded and cross-bolted...

I would say a 458 and up does or rather should be..and I think I know what I'm talking about....

I hand inlet my 416's and 404's and use two cross bolts..I use the finest Turkish wood properly laid out...I have never had one split yet in the last 50 years...Remember end grain is stronger than glass or so says Jack Belk...

What splits a stock is the bulging created in the magazine areas during firing, and two cross bolts will prevent that....

Take a look at some of the Rigbys, Westley Richards and Holland&Hollands around after a 100 years that have not split.....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

The reason for glass bedding is to maximize teh contact area between action and stock. To carve the inletting of the stock so that there is 100% contact between the recoil lugs and the action is very very difficult. For that reason we glass bed. Glass bedding really doesn't isolate a the action from stock warpage like many people believe. Honestly if a stock warps do you think that the bedding composite (which has a low elastic modulus i.e bends easily) is going to stay rigid.

It sounds as though you are an exceptional stocker Ray, which means you are a rare animal (as though we need anyone to tell us this). I just recommended full length bedding because so many stockers are not capable of providing sufficient contact between the locking lugs and the stock inletting.

You are absolutely correct regarding the end grain being stronger than the epoxy resin. This is why the epoxy resin thickness should be kept to a minimum. You are also correct in why a stock splits. It is due to bulging through the magazine area and cross bolts will help to bolster this areas strength. I have used the old method of adding material (section thickness) through the magazine area with the cross bolts on my biggest rifles.

Besides Ray between what I posted before and what you posted I see no disagreement. Unless you mean that the 416 is insufficient in recoil energy to warrant all this bedding attention. I would agree with you up to a point. The 416 Rigby when loaded hot, the 416 Weatherby, and the 416 Lazzeroni are all capable of meeting anf/or surpassing most of the 458's based off of the 375 H&H case and the 404 Jeffery Case in the recoil energy department. For a 416 Taylor or Remington and also the Howell I would agree with you that the bedding is not as critical, as long as, the is competent.

Todd E

One of the local gun shops here in Albuquerque has a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby that is basically new, but it is on consignment and the owner wants $750 firm. It's realy rare to get one these here in ABQ so it was a good opportunity for me to check it out.

According to the shop guy, he thinks the owner bought it before doing his homework and doesn't like the recoil or the weight of the gun. It's too expensive when considering the most I'd pay from the CZ Connection in Atlanta is $600 shipped plus $25 for my FFL guy here.

Anyway, this is the 2nd time I played with a CZ 500 and I was really bothered by the swivel stud on the forend (I didn't remember this from the first time I shot one a year or so ago). It didn't even have a sling attached and I can imagine how awkward that would feel when the sling is on there, too....So, I am off the CZ bandwagon for now.

Therefore, I am back to the beginning of my search. I am still trying to get my hands on a new Ruger 700 and a Win 70 in 416 to see how they feel. The gun shows that come to town are pretty bad: lots of worthless knives and overpriced powder and primers. The shows here never have anything bigger than a .375 and that's rare in itself.

For anyone that is interested, there is a pretty inexpensive Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby on gunbroker.com. That's not my bag, but I suspect there are a lot of people on this forum that may want to look at it. The starting price was around $300 with no reserve.

I'll let you know what I find in the Ruger or the Win!

Check out what Brockmans Gunsmithing offers over on Huntamerica. I think you will find his conversions interesting and will get you away from the stud swivel problem. I agree the swivel stud was a problem for mee too. Good hunting "D"

Ray,
As long as we are talking about cross bolts and bedding, let me ask this. My CZ 9.3x62 is at the smiths being rechambered to 64. The stock has double cross bolts and a second recoil lug dove tailed into the bbl about 2.5 inches in front of the action lug. No sign of any bedding from the factory. Doesn't sound like there is any need for bedding even with the additional recoil from the 64. What do you think?Thanks, Cobalt

fxdwg98

About the CZ 550 front swivel stud on the .416: I was concerned enough about it that before I ever fired the gun I pulled out front and rear studs and had them cut down to near flush and screw slots made (same size as action screws). Blued them with touch-up blue, put them back. Would have done it myself with a hacksaw, file, and electric drill, but I happened to be at my local gunsith, who undercharges me, and he did it a little quicker & better than I would have.

Having fired the gun a few times now, I'm not entirely sure I needed to remove them, but this varies with body size & other factors, and the gun recoils sufficiently that you might not want to get rapped even once.

I bought a nylon sling for no-swivel shotguns for about $3. It fits in the pocket and can be put on if needed.

[This message has been edited by Recono (edited 09-14-2001).]

What is the feeling around here about the Ruger action? The M77RSM in 416 Rigby is going for about $1300 around here. This is more than I wanted to spend, but I could save up some more if thought the reputation was good enough.

This seems like a pretty solid rifle but not too many posts around here about Ruger bolt-actions (I see a lot of #1 stuff, though, but I am not interested in the single-shot).

God Bless America and her Allies!

Frankly, I feel the Ruger is grossly overpriced. Locally I can buy a CZ550 in .416 with a stock that has a beautiful piece of walnut on it (for a factory rifle) for $650.

The Ruger is double that and has lousy wood to metal fit. Further, I hate the Ruger safety. But some people like the ruger, so its a matter of taste.

My Ruger 77, 416 Rigby is one of the best buys I have ever made. I took this rifle out of the box and put a scope on it and went to Africa. It's the most accurate rifle I own and it will shoot under 1" (actually way better than that if I do my part) any day of the week. I ordered an extra front sight for it and a few other extra parts from Ruger. The scope will return to zero if you take it off and the irons are sighted in with 400 grainers and these are good iron sights. It's just a good solid working rifle. I don't know of another rifle that can out shoot it.
I like the safety because it's a 3 position safety and blocks the bolt when it's all the way back. I also thought mine had an excellent wood to metal fit for a factory rifle.
The only things I don't like about it is the short bolt and the small safety lever but I really have had no problems with either. I've heard from other people that have had the triggers on these worked on . Sometimes they are not the best just out of the box but mine was fine. I did a little polishing on the feed ramp and wore out 4 or 5 cartridges, breaking in the action.
RAB has some threads on his Ruger 77 also.
Terry

fxdwg98,
As Terry said, the Ruger Model 77 Magnum Mk II is a great rifle. Nothing in this world is perfect. The only thing I don't like about it is the bedding system, with the only real recoil lug being the plate in the forearm. Nevertheless, as long as the stock doesn't split it is fine. Installing a Tubb/Remington-style recoil lug on the action/barrel joint would make it light years beyond any factory 416. But then you would have to throw away the recoil plate and put a lug on the barrel too. That barrel does have an integral rib though, worth saving, especially if it is as accurate as mine.

Kevin "Doctari" Robertson recommended it (in his book on cape buffalo hunting) as the best factory rifle out there.

Mine shot a 0.147" 3-shot group at 100 yards with the 380 grain GS Custom FN bullet. I killed a 42" cape buffalo with one shot through the heart ( breaking a shoulder also with that one shot) at 75 yards. I am hesitant to change anything. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

One member had his Ruger crack the stock after a thousand rounds. Ruger would surely replace it if so.

Even with all this, it is still a toss up for me. CZ 550 or Ruger 77. Either one will do. They both have their pros and cons, everything is relative.

There are no absolutes, except in one case: the Geek, he is absolutely in the same low level of life, if you can call it that, as the terrorists.

------------------
Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

Funny, I thought the only absolute in life was that R.A. would absolutely never grow the hell up.
This is a shooting/hunting post R.A. Do everyone a courtesy and confine your problem with me political threads or at least have the stones to say things to my face rather than bury them in a thread I have yet to post on.

fxdwg98,

I own a m70 in .416 rem. and am leaving for Africa in a bit over a month. I will let you know how it goes!

JohnTheGreek

[This message has been edited by JohnTheGreek (edited 09-19-2001).]

To all: This sure is fun!

------------------
Good huntin', shootin', and spear chuckin',
RAB

Todd,
I think we are pretty much in agreement and it does take a lot of skill to properly inlet a big bore rifle, or rather a lot of time and effort would be more accurate..I do agree that a thin coat of glass is a very desirable addition to good inletting in that it keeps oils from soaking in a making the wood soft, thereby allowing recoil to build a gap in time and thats splits stocks..I use a paint coat for that reason...I do this on shotguns and double rifles for the same reason...On 458 Lott and up I just glass every thing with steel bed, line the box with ebony or steel and use a barrel lug and up to 3 cross bolts.

Fxdwg98,
I think the Ruger is an exceptional rifle and the addition of intregal quarter rib is a very expensive process..It is a quality rifle, seldom seen in the annuals of factory rifles...Some do not like the recoil lug set up but it apparantly works very well indeed, but it can be easily converted to a standard recoil lug...It's the best gun for the money I've ever seen...

Cobalt,
I would glass the rifle as factory production rifle do not have the degree of inletting to stay in one piece in large calibers...Many of thoes have split...Glass simply becomes good cheap life insurance with factory big bores.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com