Hello,
I like .416Rem as a DG cartridge, but I would like to know more about .404JHow does .404J compares to .416Rem in performance? And why couldn't it become a commercial success like the Rigby? It's ability to fit in most commercially available actions and its efficient performance should have given it a commercial boost.
Would anyone like to share his thoughts on the subject? I would love to get a rifle in .404J just for the history it has behind it. If one decides to get a gun built which action (CRF obviously) would be most suitable for such a project?
BB

Since remington discontinued both the 416 rem caliber and the brass for it, I would think that the 404 would be a better cartridge, since it produces the same velocity as the 416 rem mag but with less pressure.

The 404 jeff has a different case head, no belt and a larger case body than the standard magnums which are popular in the US, so a fair amount of custom gunsmithing is needed to set up a rifle for the caliber.

I suspect the .404J was a commercial success
when compared with the .416Rigby. I say that
based on the fact it was the standard issue DGR for most Game Departments prior to WW2.
I think .416Rigby appeared in more African novels than it did in the bush, at least until very recently anyway. In fact I would bet that prior to WW2 there were ten .404J
in circulation in Africa for every .416Rigby.
I'm not knocking the .416Rigby here, just saying that certain writers glamourised it so to speak.

I'd say the biggest thing against the 404 Jeffrey is component bullet availability. The 416 was excepted by the component makers as the std 40 caliber round, and hence you can get 416 component bullets from most makers. That isn't to say you can't get excellent bullets for the 404, you can, but your options are more limited.

I assume performance of the rounds are identicle.

If the component bullet section weren't as limited as it is, I would think a 404J would nicely mate with my 500J, but my 40 caliber companion will likely be a 416 howell, 404 shortened to 2.5" and necked down. Who knows, perhaps if I come across another deal on a P-14 enfield, I'll build a 404 to match the 500.

John Ricks and I just finished a 416 Rem and are building me a 404J right now. The action is a Brno 602. The safety works backwards from a Rem 700 (same place) so we will change it to the 550 assembly. The best way to use a BRNO is to buy the CZ550 action. The safety is "proper" and the action is already blued, and is very smooth. We were examining one yesterday. Price is 400 and change.
CRF, simple, VERY nice looking, I will be sticking with them like glue...
We carve stocks too so expect some dandy "Spec" rifles to hit the market soon. That is if they are not sold before they hit the market.

J Roberts (London) are also doing some very reasonably priced work on CZ's. I called in on Tuesday and they had one they had re chambered to a .458Lott, shortened the barrel to 22" and sat it in a really good looking oil finished nicely chequered laminated "walnut style" stock. They had also reworked the existing front and rear sights and added a Lyman apature sight. Cost for that including the donor barreled action was around �2500/$4000.

500grs-
Just when did Remington "officially" discontinue production of 416 rifles, ammo or brass?

Pete:
John and I will be turning out the equivelent rifle for $1000 less than the Roberts price, sighted in, with a load worked up, plus 100 rounds of ammo.
We will mount a scope on each one for load work and if it won`t shoot tight groups, it won`t leave the shop.
Mike

John,

On the Remington web site, I could not find any rifles offered in 416 rem mag. Their offerings have been swamped by the ultra mag craze. However, they did list safari grade ammo in 416 rem mag.

I have been unable to locate Rem brass in 416 rem mag anywhere on the net. I read that Rem had stopped offering it some time ago.

Do you have information to the contrary?

(of course, there is usually no "press release" when a company discontinues a product)

500 Grains,

here is the 416

http://www.remington.com/firearms/custom/CUSTOM.HTM

Remingtons Custom Shop.

I think that has always been the case with the 416.

Although I can assure you from personal experience that the word Custom does not apply

I think the 416 Remington will be dead though when the 416 Ultra comes out.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 06-14-2001).]

Mike,

With all due respect (In my poshest English accent) your rifles still won't be a "J Roberts & Son".. Seriously, for us Brits the Roberts is probably a better bet and the end price will be similar when you take into account import tax and shipping costs ect.
Really it just amazes me that a J Roberts rifle is an affordable option for a working
class guy like me...unlike the best English shotguns at H&H which cost more than the house I live in!! Good luck in your project...

Pete

There is a fresh batch of Rem headstamped 416Rem on the street. Midway had 416 Rem Mag brass in their last catalog, for about $190/500.

Don

Mike,

If I recall correctly, the 416 rem mag was available from Rem in a production rifle for a while. I guess somebody at Rem decided that if they made the rifles harder to get, they could charge more. Frankly, I don't understand the logic of it.

500 Grains,

There sometimes seems to be some confusion as to what is Custom Shop from Remington.

For example the Rem 700 416 Remington I owned was lsited as Custom shop, the sames as the Safari 375s and 458s use to be.

However that rifle was purchased from stock in the gun shop.

The Remington agents out here have the 375 Ultra coming in the Safari fibeglass stocked model which is listed as Custom Shop. However they would specifically ordered them.

On the other hand, I think dealers and agents have to take whatever models are sent from the standard catalogue items. Maybe different in America.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 06-14-2001).]

Peter E:

With all due respect, the J. Roberts is no doubt a decent rifle, but I'll take one of Rick's and we'll shoot them side by side, same caliber, and whichever one shoots best gets to keep the other one. Bet?

Another reason that the 404J will not become a commercial success is the limitation in velocity and pressure of factory ammunition with respect to the old rifles still in use. It is only an option for reloaders.

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500grains,
I did a search & found the following brass listed on the internet.

Midwayusa.com
.4l6 Rem
Bell 20 @ $l9.49
Rem l00 @ $39.99
Rem 500 @ $l64.99

Bellammo.com
.4l6 Rem
Bell l00 @ $75

Best Wishes,
WyoJoe

I wonder why J Roberts is builidng 404 Jeff on the CZ, when a classic cartridge like the 404 screams out for a mauser 98 action. Of course, the cost of action mods and a new mag box is far more than a new cz550 action that is almost ready to go.

Gatogordo,
I'm certainly not knocking Rick or Mike's
work and for very good reason...I have not seen it!!:-) It's simply more "practical" for me to buy this sort of rifle in the UK. Apart from J Roberts there are probably several not so well known 'smiths doing similar work at this end of the price range over here. Its only when you want a high price "best quality" rifle that the field narrows.

500grains,

This is the "budget" end of J Roberts work if you like. The rifle we saw had been built
to a customer's spec...if you want an M98
or M70 or M77Mk11 I would bet they would build/customise a rifle to your requirements.
Interestingly, there basic boxlock's doubles started at around �16,000 which again was "cheaper" than I thought, although still
costing more than my 4x4 though!

I was actually having a browse around London
with one of the guys (500nitro) who posts here and I think he will be writing a short
article for one of the Safari mags about some of the stuff J Roberts showed us...he also got some pretty good pictures of some of the more "unusual/interesting" stuff. I won't say anymore because i don't want to
steal his thunder!

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 06-15-2001).]

Pete:

I guess that means that you don't want to bet your "best quality" Roberts against my poor old American Ricks. Understandble, old chap. (He says in his best limey imitation)

I am not trying to start some cross Atlantic flames here, and my hat is really off to some of the intricate detail and file work that British gunsmiths are capable of. It is just that we do the end product better. LOL

Finally, it is not as cheap as Midway, but I prefer to do business with Blue Star Cartridge out of Searcy, Ark. Phone # 501 268 6443. They have new Remington .416 RM brass for 43.50/100. They are an excellent source for any Remington brass. And will probably be at the Dallas Gun Show this weekend.

Gatogordo

I'm just not a betting man as I'm too unlucky- hell, if I fell in a barrel of tits, I'd come up come sucking my thumb!!
Anyway, we've strayed a bit from the original
post.
Getting back to the question about which action is best, my first question would be do you want Stainless or Blued??? For a working gun, stainless does have its advantages, but to me anyway, it does not seem right on a DGR for Africa! I only wish there was a reliable and readily available way to "black/blue" stainless then we really could have our cake and eat it. I suppose the nearest to that would be a teflon coating???

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 06-15-2001).]

Pete, I found an industrial flat black paint made in the USA for chemical and tough industrial applications. It is resistant to most chemicals and has an incredible tough finish. Just for the hell of it I cleaned the barrel of my stainless steel 30/06 with acetone and masked off the action. Removed it from the stock and sprayed the barrel several months ago. To this day there is not a scratch in the paint or a nick. I have used it every week since I painted it and it looks as good today as the day I did it. I have used solvents to clean it and CR10 bore cleaner has had no effect on it. It is not classy blue and real pretty but I no longer have a stainless shine to my barrel.

The finish of the barrel matches almost exactly the color of the matte finish of my leupold scope. It has had enough abuse that I can see areas of the barrel where the matte has become slightly polished from carrying it over my shoulder.

I'm not excited about painting my guns black but for my beater working 30/06 rifle is is doing exactly what I want and it will be very easy to touch up when I need to!

I did not paint any of the action only the barrel. It actually looks pretty nice with the black stock, barrel, and scope, The action and rings are still stainless finish.jj

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

I have used the 404 Jefferys as much as any modern man and I believe it to be the best of the best...It is a simple matter to take any 375 Lenth action and make a 404 as the 404 is actually shorter than the 375 H&H...

Brass from RWS, Norma is no problem, bullets from Barnes and Woodleigh are easily obtainable...95 grs. of IMR 4831 will give you 2600 plus with a 400 gr. bullet and thats cooken'...but 93 grs at 2350 to 2400 is a better bet on the shoulder and plenty in that big case with very low pressure.....

You have a neat 9 Lb. rifle on a smaller action than say a 416 Rigby and no belt such as on the 416 Remington...it is time proven in the bush...

I can think of no reason why it is not the best of design in 40 cal. (.423) and operates at very low pressure...Accurate by nature and recoil, though substantial is not distressing.....

I presently shoot a 416 Rem and I like it just fine, but I like the 404 a little better. From a practicle standpoint there is little difference in killing power between the 416 Rem, Rigby or the 404....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

An interesting aside is that in the past more 404s existed then 416s, so I believe at one time it was quite a commercial success.
Even at its modern low end at 2150 my 404 makes a great "woods" cartrige.

Ray,
Save this one for your book. Very good!

OK, you guys have covered the .404 ~V~ the .416 , but what about the .425 Westly Richards??? The .404 &.416 seem to get all the limelight, but surely the .425 W-R is worth considering?? I don't know if anybody
loads for this commercially, but I would
imagine it's a fine calibre for a handloader.

The 425 W.R. always had feed problems I understand and needed a special magazine and the pretty much killed it or so I have been told...It is a balistic marvel...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Some months ago Brownells was offering a small stock of .404 Jeffery barreled actions for the Ruger No. 1 at under $500. These are left over from a build of many years ago that apparently didn't sell, so they have higher production quality than more recent stuff and a certain collector appeal. You should be able to buy Ruger stocks for next to nothing or (better yet) have a nice stock made with all the money you've saved.