What can be said for the pros and cons of either round, loaded abouve standard velocity, with respect to double rifles, in a rebarrelled Ruger No 1? I'll probably never make it to Africa but I've got this thing for big bores having cut my teeth with a 375 H&H, later rechambered to the 375 AI,then followed that with a custom built 416 Rigby on the Bruno ZKK 602 action. Now this idea of either 450 or 475 No2 is nagging me. I relize the 475 brass and bullets (.488) may be a little hard to come by compared to .458 but I understand Barnes is still making them, and possibly others,I haven't checked. Anyone care to offer their views?

Carlos, they both are good cartridges for the Ruger No1, and loaded up for the Ruger they will be a little hotter than is safe for a double rifle, so you need to protect your ammo so it doesn't get into a double by accident.

That being said, there are many good reasons for going with the 450NE#2 above the 475NE#2! The first of course is the availability of a great range of bullets, for a far greater range of game. Second is the cost of building the rifle in the bigenning. The 450NE#2 is a simple re-chambering job of a 458 Win Mag No1H, with a little extractor work. The 475NE #2 would require re-barreling, remounting of the sights and the contureing of the barrel which has to be the same as the No1 H so the, sights, sling ring, hanger, and forestock will work. I would say the 475NE#2 will cost you $800, to $1000 more than the same rifle chambered for 450NE#2.

Personally, since pressures are not a problem in the Ruger No1, I prefere the old stand by, the 450NE 3 1/4". It is a simple re-chambering, and will do anything the other two will do just as well, with less cost,and the brass is much easier to find than either of the other two! I have an unfired Ruger No1H 458 Win Mag, and I'm going to have it re-chambered for the 450NE 3 1/4", with only one modification, a Pachmier decellirator recoil pad!

Personally, I always believe that bigger is better, so I would be tempted to get the .475 because of its bigger cross sectional area. That being said, I know I would pay a premium for dies, bullets, brass, and reamer.

In used guns, a .475 tends to bring less than a 450, at least in my observation. There seems to be a caliber penalty because it is a little bit of an oddball.

The one Jeffery 475 #2 that I have shot did not have uncomfortable recoil. I think the #2 is a heck of a killer! The fella that owns the Jeffery has taken 2 elephants and cape buffalo with the rifle.

Now having said that I have seen 450 No2's double and it shoot very well!

Heck it's your money buy what you want! If it were my choice I'd opt for the 475 #2. If the choice is between rifles choose the better rifle!

Unless you want Mac and I to spend it for you? If that is the case, we will need substantually more funding!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

I considered rechambering my Ruger #1 458 to 450#2 but several people on this forum convinced me to go with the 458Lott, which is apparently being standardized. Yes, the 450#2 looks impressive and holds more powder. However, cases are expensive and not readily available, powder may not burn as efficiently as in the Lott case, the Lott will handle 458 Winchesters in a pinch, and the Lott develops as much velocity as is optimal for 458 caliber 500 grain bullets and is more versatile over a wider variety of reduced loadings. A case can also be made for the Watts or Ackley, which headspace on a shoulder rather than the belt, will also handle Lott or Winchester rounds, and have slightly more powder capacity/velocity potential than the Lott. I'd definitely go with the 450#2 over the 475#2 because of the wide variety of available bullets and the ability to economically rechamber the 458 barrel. If you decide you want something a little bigger and get into rebarreling, I'd choose the 500NE.

A P.H. friend of mine, Ernst Scholz, (Namibia and Tanzania) recently had a Ruger #1 built up for him in .475 Jeffery #2. Ernst wanted it for personal hunting use, not P.H. back-up purposes. Clyde Moore of D&D Guns in Clawson, Michigan ( 248 583 1524) built the rifle. I had occassion to shoot it a couple times during the sight installation stage and found the recoil stout but quite manageable. The rifle was relatively lightweight but well balanced and quite quick to point.

Mac, 500 & Rusty: Thanks for the reply's guys! Most of the points you've made in your positions have been pondered about before my post. Am I correct in that the 475 No 2 is based on the 450 No 2 case hence both are 3 1/2 inches in length and as such should deliver about the same relative potential with respect to bore? Do any of you know the case capacities of each round? Is each capable of 2400 to 2500 fps with the 480 or 500 gr bullet? Like I said, I'll probably never get to Africa, so perhapps it's a moot point as to which case delivers better performance. Then it boils down to wether or not I choose to be a little off the beaten path and go with the 475, or be a little more 'practical'(what's practical about packing a 450 NE No2 in the south west Alberta Rocky Mountains anyhow????, might change my mind about this in a grizzly charge though!) and go the 450 route. I had planed on a rebarrel job with either case as I would prefer heavy 26 inch barrel to up the weight of the gun to 11 or 12 lbs, with recoil in mind. I don't mind the extra weight.

Matt and fla3006: Thanks for your input also. Your posts went up while I was composing my reply. You both made good points to consider. Matt, how light was "relativly light", 9 to 10 lbs or so?

Carlos et al. Before I bought my first double I did a lot of research, including reading a lot of the older books about hunters, and poachers that used double rifles. I had previous experience with 2 45/70"s and two 458 Win Mags. They had been shot and hunted a fair amount. I knew I wanted a 450 double to use the readily avialable 458 bullets. In fact when I went to test fire the 450 No2 I tested 350 Hornady RN. If it had not shot those bullets acceptable I would not have bought the gun. However.... I just happened to see a 450/400 3 1/4 that I also thought was perfect for my situation[wife hunts too], just right LOP and only weighs 9 1/4 lbs. So I got them both. This was about 4+years ago. I have used both of them quite a bit, and of all the doubles I have handled since I am still quite happy with my choices. Both calibers have done excellent service, and my wife can shoot the 400 pretty good. For me the advantage of the 458 dia. bullets makes the 450 No2 by far and away the best choice. If you are going to re-barrel a Ruger No1 you might consider the 470 Nitro. Same power as both the No2's and it is the most popular Nitro Express at this time. But if you just got to have a 475 No2, just go for it, we are not VULCANS and logic does not have to play a part in any of our gun/calibre selections. PS If you do not have to up the velocity of the Nitro Express's look at some original single shot British falling blocks, the ones I have handled really feel good.

Mac you gave the dimensions for the 450 Rigby,Straight,or 3 1/4 the actual dimensions for the 450 No2 are
Rim .660
Head .564
Length 3.50

[ 08-14-2002, 10:04: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Carlos,

I'm going to guesstimate that the #1 in .475 Jeffery #2 that I shot weighed about 9 pounds, perhaps slightly more. At the time I shot it there was no scope. It was a custom stock somewhat similar to a 1-B configuration with a slightly narrower forearm. The recoil was heavy but of the "slow" variety, not the stinging fast stuff like you get with a .378 Weatherby. I shot it from a bench a couple times and once standing.

It struck me as a simple, elegant, and trim set-up. Give Clyde a call if you want the specifics.
He does nice work.

-Matt

Mac, one source I have lists max dimensions, ie rim .660 the other lists minimum dimensions ie rim .650. I just miked two cases and they measured .655.[Bertram] The two sources show the same min/max .010 difference in the rims of the 475 No2 cases also.

I have an A.Hollis 475#2 double rifle.It is not the easiest cartrigde not get bullets and brass for.But the biggest problem is case size, it is hard to fill. Mine is a older rifle, JJ at Champlin told me it was made in late 1907 or 1908. My normal gunsmith had restored an A.hollis rifle that had been made in the 1920's in 470 nitro and has had worked with a few doubles he said it was an early one also. The reason I am tell you this is I'm afraid of the slower powders in the early barrels I have been told by many good double rifle cranks to stay away from the slow powders in the older guns to much pressure at the end of the barrels. So filling the case with RL-15 or 3031 you need alot of filler with this old huge case. In a double it has been fun to come up with the right load. My load that shoots best in my rifle is ROSS'S powder formula max RL-15 , a Fed 215M , 5 grains of poly and .488 woodliegh bullets. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE FEDRAL 216 PIMER SOLD TO THE PUBLIC.I have only shot a couple of hogs with the rifle so far I will use on a BUFF one day.It is hard to get bullets brass and the right load but maybe it should be that way.

THANKS EJ GENTRY III

Thanks to everyone for all the informative replies. Nothing beats getting the right information from those who have "been there, done that". Still on the fence with the 450/475 decision,but I have been accused of having excentric leanings when it comes to guns. Thanks again everyone! I'll check this topic from time to time incase anyone else has something to contribute to the discusion.

Go with a .500 NE!

You can shoot it for pennies a round if you use mil-surplus BMG bullets. Also, with BMG bullets there are 'fun' choices (AP, Tracer, Incendiary, etc)

Ed 475 & MacD37
What sources have you been using for the 475 No2 brass and could you make any recommendations.

Not a hard choice for me

I would have opted for the 458 caliber because of bullet selection. If that would have been to small next choice would have been a 470 or 500 nitro express.

Components, dies, brass, bullets are already expensive and hard to find, soo why make it even more

Good luck
/ JOHAN

I have been using any I can get. I am using BERTAM,KYNOCH & WOLFGANG ROMEY.I do not like any of this brass but it is all I can get. I have read that A-SQUARE has made some but if it is like the rest of his brass it will not be good.

THANKS
EJ GENTRY III

OH, GOD! PLEASE DON'T USE A-SQUARE

The A-Square stuff I have seen has been way too soft, seen case head seperations. Use anything but A-Square.
Lousy brass from a lousy guy who stole from people!

Carlos, my 475No2 barss is HDS (Hunington Die Specialities) and is of very high quality! Someone said the other day, that HDS was out of it, but I don't know that for sure. If you are needing it fast for a safari, I have two boxes(40 cases) that is brand new HDS. I really don't want to part with it, but if you need it I could!

I will buy some HDS brass when they have it in stock. Thank you very much for the info.

THANKS
EJ GENTRY III

Note on building a 450/475 Nitro on a No. 1 - one problem is that a No. 1 action is somewhat lighter than a big bolt action (e.g., Magnum Mauser). Also, unless you want to rework the forearm hanger the barrel must be 1" or less where it hits the forearm, and must follow the original contour (or close) unless you want to mount a new rib. This makes it hard to get the weight of the gun up there without a long, heavy barrel, which makes the gun kind of front heavy (having owned a 460 with a 30" barrel I can vouch for this).

My fellow big bore afficianados:

Guys! Things just got way serious on my end here! I AM GOING TO AFRICA !!!!!!!! I was discussing my 450/475 dilema with a co-worker who I knew is a gunsmith and I said .... I'll probably never get to Africa but I got this thing for big bores.....and he said " Hey,I'm going to Africa two years from now and I need a hunting partner. Want to come?" Seems he puts together hunts for clients from Canada and the U.S. so he has some fantastic inside deals. He's been on two safaries and has 2 buff's and several horned game animals to show for it. And to top it off when I mentioned this to my wife, expecting a "You want to go where?" She just smiled and said," I think you getter go honey. It's something you've always dreamed of." I just about cried. Love that woman.

MacD37. Thanks for the increadably kind offer. You're one in a million. I'm very touched. But I should be able to find some brass,if I go the 475 route,and I think I will, in the next several months.

9X23W: Thanks for the info.I'll probably put it to good use.

[ 08-19-2002, 09:06: Message edited by: Carlos ]

I emailed MAST Technology about 475#2 B.E.L.L.
Brass and this is the response I got form them. .

Thank you for your inquiry. We do have the 475 #2 on our production
schedule, however it may not actually go into production until spring 2003.
At this time I don't have a price for the product. Please check back next
year for any production update for this case because there are many factors
that can effect whether any particular case remains on the production
schedule or is deleted.

So it looks like they are in the works!
Thanks to Jay Jackson over at MAST for his reply!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 08-21-2002, 02:51: Message edited by: Rusty ]