I would like to air a problem that I am experiencing and get the members feedback and suggestions. For now I would like to keep the gun makers identity confidential. My hope is this will be resolved as a win win outcome. heres' the story....September 2007 I ordered a custom made safari rifle .375 H&H. I pick all the features and was promised the rifle would be available for a June 2008 safari. To improve the odds I also ordered a Kevlar stock which I was told would be easier to finish on time. The plan was to return the rifle after the safari so that a proper custom wood stock could be fitted. I had numerous conversations and e-mails which I have documented. In December I picked out a special piece of wood and in January met with the maker in Dallas Safari Convention. Early in 2008 when I was anticipating a completed rifle in June I paid the balance..thinking this would streamline the process once the rifle was completed. I had to change my safari plans and ended going to Tanzania in late August and September 2008. The rifle in Kevlar arrived in early August. I promptly went to the range. The second round failed to fire as did subsequent rounds. I returned the rifle overnight at my expense for corrective measures, two days later the rifle returned and worked flawlessly. I went to Tanzania and was sucessful on Hippo, Leopard, and assorted plains game. Once back in the staes the rifle was returned for wood stock fitting ...that was late Sept 2008. Today July 28 nearly one year later I am still waiting. Ok I know the custom rifle game is unpredticable and a custom rifle can take a while to complete. But I had the rifle..I registered at my local FFL dealer..and interestingly enough saw the same rifle on display in Dallas in January 2009...the explaniation...we are making you another rifle ...the one you took to Tanzania is not the one you ordered...and now of course the economy is affecting suppliers and such and when presssed no one will give me an arrival date. Is this wierd or what? I mean I have a customs form with a serial # for a rifle that I believe is on the web for sale and the Feds think it is mine or would if they checked so now IF if I ever get my new custom .375 I will actually have two registered in my name...is this assumption correct? Anyway I am a patient person but really feel like I am getting jerked around. What would a reasonable nimrod do...I like the company owner but I am really frustrated. I am not a person that would usually call for legal help but I am really considering it. Any advice? From what I read in the forums I think you guys would have better insight into the problem...Thanks to anyone that can help

They sold your rifle while it was in their shop to have a new stock made? If those are the facts there is a word for that.

RW, you are a very patient man. Yes custom rifles can take some time but you are dealing with another kind of person in my humble opinion. Good luck with your rifle purchase. I hope you get what you paid for in the end.

You say you like the guy. I could say that too about the local smith who's had my high grade shotgun now for over two years with only verbal reassurances and no reasonable excuses.

In my case actually doing something about it gets down to how important it is to me and my chances of getting satisfaction without an open break.

But then I can show up any time and say I want to see the gun and any work. And that's what I will eventually get to. Also, I haven't actually paid anything. Otherwise I wouldn't have tolerated it this long.

This violates Federal Law, and should be addressed by the ATF.

I agree with you, you are getting jerked around.
How you could like this person is beyond me as he has already proven to be dishonest.

I really do not know what to suggest you do other than demand your money back you paid for the rifle they are trying to sell.

I hope that once all the facts are clear and the issue is resolved. If this gunsmith is in the wrong we would all be served by knowing. The trade demands a high price tag and well deserved for the skills and earned experience. Some here will only build one custom or semi custom rifle. Others will build many more. No one should have to deal with this smith. Just my opinion.

As far as I know the rifle I received a year ago has NOT been sold, but it was on display in Dallas and I think it was on the web site. The issue seems to be that even though I thought I had purchased the rifle, it was, I guess, just a loaner. But it is not the same rifle that I ordered. So the joke is on me. I suppose all could have been avoided with the maker explaining to me the difference when he shipped the loaner. It still doesn't explain the extended time to recieve the rifle I did order. Thanks for your comments and I will keep anyone interested posted on the outcome. Does buyer beware seem appropriate to anyone?

Since they took your rifle back into inventory and offering for sale, they would have had to re enter into their records? In short, you no longer are the owner of record after that is done. Since they are attempting to sell the rifle, they had better have re entered it or their would be legal problems. Don't believe the ATF would have any concern with the in and out of the rifle on the books. What would upset me on this matter is that they apparently did not ask or care whether all of this was OK with you. Pressure is off them, you had a rifle for your hunt as promised, now you can wait for the stock work, they can hopefully sell your orignial rifle, raise cash, and get on with business as usual. Poor way to conduct business anyway you look at it.

As for the economy and slow deliveries on supplies, parts, etc., that does not "hold water" either. It is either wood, metal or labor or combo of same that makes up the rifle and perhaps they meant the demand is high and slows down the process??
Since they are selling your original rifle and at this time have none to replace it, believe I would go for a full refund. The gunsmith firm is not out of pocket for he has the rifle back and is back to square one with you.
Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I don't deal in this grade/level of firearms, but I read and hear of similar events all the time and it really does give the gunsmith trade a bad name. Some years ago had planned a trip to Africa and going to have a custom built, budgeted some 5-$6,000 for the project and kept reading these bad reports and opted to buy two RSM's and spent some $3,000 instead.
If this is not resolved to your satisfaction, even though the person is considered a friend, believe I would advise to those you choose to steer away from having work done by the firm. Hope it turns out well for you.

martin

Be Direct----
A Certified ,Return Receipt letter is needed.

Be Explicit---
Cite expectations, dates of contacts,dates of deliveries, verbal/email/written declarations of dates, materials, specifications, Contract terms in any, etc.

Be Courteous and Businesslike--
Do not engage in verbal abuse profanity, threats , etc

Custom rifle makers it seems lately are more often than not "off-schedule" as compared to customer expectations

In any business relationship, communication, both direct and specific in nature is the key.

That key level of contact appears (from what little you have written) to be absent on one side at least.

Your situation ,as described, is unacceptable, if not fraudulent.

If extenuating circumstances ,such as an illness,(not fabricated for self protection) are involved , you should have been informed at the very least, if not offered a refund due to the lack of fulfillment of obligation/expectation.

IMO

I would bet $10 that you mailed it to New Hampshire.

Edit:

all you can do is cancel or keep waiting. I have been waiting for a custom rifle ordered in 2006. I was told when I ordered it it would take about a year. I was told about 2 weeks ago it would be delivered within 60 days. The deal was sweetened considerably to keep me from canceling.

Yesterday I sent a pre-64 action to a different maker to have a new rifle made from it. I'm done spending money waiting for custom wood. All new rifles for me will be kevlar from here on out.

If the new guys do a good job I will send them my magnum pre 64 for another rifle.

If you filled out a Form 4473 at an FFL dealer when you received the gun prior to your safari, THAT is your rifle.

If they will not return your rifle or provide a refund, consider escalating the dispute.

If the facts are as you say they are, the gunsmith has already been deceitful, if not downright dishonest.

George

Mr. Taylor, I feel you are being deceived. The more I read a/b "custom guns", the more disappointed I become. It seems this crap is quite prevalent.
On a similar, but more positive note, I commissioned my first and only full custom in 2006. Paid 1/3 up front w/ a represented delivery time of 18 mths. Although delivery time was 3 yrs, the smith kept me informed and did NOT ask for any more $ until the rifle was ready to ship. It's much better than I expected and/or hoped so I am happy.
As for request for the name of the smith, I think you owe it to fellow shooters/forumites. When I decided to build my custom, I was in the dark as to custom gunsmiths(b/4 I found AR) and just happened to get lucky w/ my choice. Keep someone else from having to endure what you are unfortuneately expieriencing.
Hope things work out for you.

Here is my take. they made you a promise, and seemed to deliver on it, when you sent it back for the 2nd stock they hadn't told you that you wouldn't be getting it back.

It must have met the specs that you ordered yours as, or you wouldn't have registered it. I don't understand where they're coming from. if it met the specs, and was delivered on time, why are they now not sending it back? why would they say it was a loaner? if it is just inventory to them now and meets your specs, why wouldn't they use it to fill your order?

something is very off about this. I too think it is good to let it be known who the company is, I'd be incredibly pissed if I were in your situation and would be doubly so if I found out I wasn't the first person that had been bent over by this smith.

Red

A few questions to consider. When payment was made/completed was there a serial number for the rifle or action on your reciept? Was the project started from an action or rifle you sent? Also mentioned that the rifle sent for use with the hunt was not the one ordered, did this one vary much from original order? If it was a loaner just for the hunt while they were working on yours, then in my opinion they should have paid or at least offered to pay for all shipping expenses of the "loaner" as they were already beyond expected dates of completion of original rifle.
Get everything in order and be very direct with this company. Just because you have a 4473 on file with your local dealer and a customs form with serial number, these do not register the rifle to you as it is legal to loan firearms across state lines and for use out of the country. Crack the whip with these guys, remind them you paid for it in good faith and that you need your rifle.
Good luck.
Rodney.

Maybe I am too hardcore on matters like this, but if you have a bill of sale and customs form with that rifle serial number on it then it is yours. If they do indeed have it and say it isn't yours, ask them to produce a bill of sale or release from you saying they own it. If not, I would demand my rifle back and if they didn't send it, I would go to the local DA and file grand theft charges, it the amount is enough in that jurisdiction.
I worked in the retail gun business for many years and I can tell you that the BATFE frowns on "loaner" guns. One other point that would have raised a red flag with that company is that they sent you a rifle that didn't work. The gunsmith I worked for used to test the rifles he made with at least 20 rds of ammo, different brands and bullet weights to make sure if functioned. I don't think the odds are that they would test the gun and then after one more round (the one you fired that worked) it would develope problems. Good luck and hope you get everything worked out.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
If you filled out a Form 4473 at an FFL dealer when you received the gun prior to your safari, THAT is your rifle.

If they will not return your rifle or provide a refund, consider escalating the dispute.

If the facts are as you say they are, the gunsmith has already been deceitful, if not downright dishonest.

George

eorge - plus customs now considers him to be the owner of the rifle. Anyone else trying to take the rifle out of the country is going to have a bit of a problem.

ATF had him listed as the owner of the rifle. Customs has him listed as the owner of the rifle. He paid in full for the rifle so a state court would consider him to be the owner of the rifle.

If you never agreed to a loaner deal, it seem pretty clear who owns that rifle. The smith is not free to swap it out for his own convenience. That is called "conversion" and conversion is theft in most states. Certified letter demanding its return within 10 days or the rifle gets reported as stolen.

Well, I am sure not a lawyer, however, if the rifle was transferred to you, then I would contact my PD and turn it in as stolen and tell them you saw it advertised where ever you saw it. if it gets put in NCIS as stolen it will be intercepted when it is brought back into the country.

Thanks to all who have replied....it reassures me at least that I am not the only one who thinks things are not all on the up and up. I'm not sure what I will do next, but I think I'll try another attempt to get a friendly resolution from the maker. I havn't talked to him in a while, just been stewing away here in the heartland. To addd salt in the would just seems like things have been tilting down hill since Nov 2008 and really sliding downward since Jan 2009. So I guess a little old custom rifle is just a drop in the bucket. I Will let everyine know if and when this story ends. Tahnks again Cheers...its that time of the day

I really enjoy custom rifles and enjoy the build process when all goes right. At the same time, I've been a vocal critic of the custom gun trade in general because it's largely populated with stupid, lazy ne'r-do-wells (of course there are a few notable exceptions to this generalization).

Has the custom gun trade really gotten so bad that a customer who has had his rifle stolen by the gunsmith has to ask if his experience was outside the normal course of business and if it should be a cause for concern?

So they figured out they can get more money for a item you purchased (pre-64 Winchester action or equal maybe?) Never heard of a "borrowed gun" myself when it comes to a FFL. Please post the name of said "Gunsmith" so we can all be aware of said smith's practices.

..... My gunsmith is local , that helps out alot .. He is also production oriented . . He also builds the kind of non pinky finger rifles I,m after ....
. I read and hear alot about the problems the pinky finger crowd encounters .......................... Problem is , if you are talking about lots of fine doodeling in the metal and wood ,, You are dealing with an artist and the artsy fartsy crowd mentality , yuk !!!!! .,.,. Fine wood isn,t worth the trouble ................. If you have the $$$ and can walk into a showroom , see what you want and buy it great .. Waiting on stuff ,, No ...
.
. In your shoes , I would get the rifle back immediately , and be done with it .....

I love beautiful wood stocked rifles and hunt with them. I sure as hell have never been referred to as an artsy fartsi guy, maybe fartsi. I drink Bud and drive a pickum up truck. I have lived among the Fireweed for several years and have tasted pombe.
I didn't know that I was that kind of guy since I like and have nice wood stocked rifles.
Butch

Maybe so Butch, but are you a member of:

quote:

the pinky finger crowd

?
Peter.

Yep, my finger is pink, and so is other parts, and I sometimes fart. I suppose that makes me fartsy pinky fingered, if not artsy fartsy, but what has that to do with guns?

I would far rather be pinky fingered and artsy fartsy that rude and crude, and dibilitatingly opinionated and stuck in medieval religious dogma.

KB

Peter,
What are you looking for? I'm not a country club member, I don't play golf, I have one suit for funerals, I wear a Citizen watch, I don't wear boxers, I chew my fingernails, and pick my nose. I make enough money to pay my bills and to support my habits. How is that for a resume?
Butch

What is this registeringI have herd on this thread ? I own about 23 guns , and heve never registerd a single one,
Never been asked to either.
As to your problem with the smith , I would be pissed that he did not explain to you about your rifle not comming back to you before hand.
If I took a rifle to africa and had a sucssesfull hunt with it , you can be sure it would be in my mind, my rifle.
This buisness of a loaner rifle should have been explained up front.
...tj3006

Regarding the "registration" angle I think that's something the law talks about with machine guns and destructive devices. I believe it's actually a misnomer with other guns. Many assume the FFL process is registration, but that's probably because it just "feels" that way.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 regulates "transfers". As I understand it the main concern is a person being qualified to be a transferee rather than establishing ownership. In other words, I don't think it says anything about the transfer process making anyone the legal owner. The term "transfer" is defined as including both sales and loans, among other things. However, there's an exception for temporary loans for hunting.

Given that, I think at best it's an open question how much can be gotten out of relying on FFL law in a civil dispute over a gun's ownership.

What I would MUCH rather rely on is possession of a written Bill of Sale signed by the seller/transferor acknowledging receipt of the purchase price as payment in full. I realize that's after-the-fact but maybe others can benefit from it. I think I would tell a seller beforehand a signed Bill of Sale is required. It could be obtained either in person or sent along with the gun to the FFL.

The customs end of it maybe someone else is familiar with.

I'll add $10.00 to the New Hampshire bet.

Dave