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Check this out. For more on the Quest Extreme Carbine, check the Quest FAQ Built on the proven No. 4 Enfield action, the Summit� Carbine offers .45-70 knockdown power in a short, powerful sporting carbine. Each Summit Carbine starts out as a rugged, reliable No. 4 action, "the fastest bolt action ever made". It is then remanufactured and rebarreled with a precision button rifled barrel to exacting standards. A modern front sight has been added, and the original MIL SPEC peep sights retained. The blued barreled action is then hand fitted to a newly made checkered walnut finished hardwood sporting stock. The result is a fast handling carbine, ideal for deep woods and brush hunting, with the knockdown power to tackle anything on four legs in North America. Available Fall, 2001.
For more on the Summit 45-70 Carbine, check the Summit FAQ http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport.html I want one. -Catter ------------------ | ||
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They've been advertising this rifle for at least 2 years now. They just keep moving back the availability date. The last I heard, they were having issues with the magazines. For the do-it-yourselfer, here is an article from an old Handloader magazine about building an 45-90 Express Rifle on an Enfield action: www.fireflysoft.com/FSoft/Enfield/ConvertEnfield.asp | |||
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Wildcatter, I'll love same rifle in .444 Marlin. ------------------ | |||
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This is a good idea,but not as practical as simply doing a 98 Mauser, and barreling for 458X2"! All that is involved is opening the bolt face to mag size, slick up the feeding. The 458X2" American is simply a 45-70, in a belted case. It can be used with Ruger No1 45-70 loads, or even hotter with 400 gr bullets it can be loaded up to almost 458 Win Mag pressures, and speeds. A few years ago I had a Siamese Mauser 45-70 and it was a lot of fun, but later I bought a used 458X2" American built on a 98 Mauser action, and now that was a real rifle, and aptly named! It would make a fine Brown bear rifle. ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-19-2002).] | |||
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Will these rifles be available in Austrlaia?? Ber007 Just wanting to know what advantage you envisage a .444 would be over a 45/70. The 45/70 does everything the .444 does and you can shoot right up to those garret 524 grainers if you wish. Thats why I chose a marlin 45/70 over the .444 I just thought it was a little more versatile. Not trying to be argumentitive just want to hear your reasons. Regards PC ------------------ | |||
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PC, The main reason is I already have a Marlin guide gun in .444 Marlin (and love it). I alreadu have all reloading equipments in this caliber. One other reason is in a rifle (bolt action) you can have a higher pressure than in a lever rifle. I'll use in this rifle heavy bullet (350 gr) with very hot loads. I have nothing against 45/70, but I prefer .444 (more velocity than 45/70). I have my .458 Win Mag to use 500 gr bullet. I see no interrest to use a 500 gr in a 45/70. I know that the original name of this caliber was 500/45/70 (weight of bullet/caliber/nb of grains in black powder). ------------------ | |||
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BER007, I have just loaded some 300 gr hornady xtp's for my 1894p marlin .44 magnum, I am yet to try them yet, they will be scooting out at 1450 fps. I would like someone with a .444 to give them a go as you will be driving them at 2200fps thereabouts and I reckon they would be explosive on thin skinned stuff at .444 speed. I would be real interested if you could try that if you have not already. I will drop you a line when I have tried them out of my .44 mag to tell you how they perform at my velocity's. Regards PC. ------------------ | |||
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BER007, The problem with the conversion of an SMLE to 444 Marlin is that the rim diameter is quite a bit smaller than the 303 Britsh rim. 444 Marlin: .514 This tells me that since the bolt face can't economically be reduced in size, the conversion isn't a viable option. But on the other hand, I think some SMLE's were converted to 308 Winchester. If you could secure one of these, you would be starting with a .473 diameter bolt face which could easily be opened up to suit. The overall length of the 444 Marlin cartridge fits with a surplus of almost half an inch of room in the magazine. -Catter ------------------ | |||
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PC, Read the following about velocity Vs Pressure by Paco Kelly One of the things I find fascinating because it goes against logic is pressure and it's relationship to velocity in guns. One would think that as the pressure goes up, there would be a parallel increase in velocity.....no matter which powder is used. Ain't SO! Where one powder may give 40,000 psi and 1500 fps, with the same bullet, cartridge, primer, gun, everything but a different powder - one still giving 40,000 psi - there can be vastly different velocities. For example: With 296 powder, 12.4 grains under a 200 gr. lead bullet in .357 magnum cases gives 1335 fps.....with the same gun 4.3 grains of IMR 700X gives only 795 fps. Yet they both generate 35,000 psi! That is not an absolute anomaly either. IMR 4227, SR4756, SR7625, IMR PB and number of others generate 35,000 plus psi and still don't even break 1000 fps. Many would say it is the quickness or slowness of the burning rate. And SOMETIMES that is right. But in the above list IMR 4227 gives only 966 fps at a cost of 35,500 lbs. of pressure. And 4227 is considered a slow pistol powder. Still, today with cast bullets in some rifle rounds it is superb. Some believe that no matter the powder, the revolver burns 99% of it before the bullet gets out of the forcing cone. Recent tests have shown with some slow powders like 2400, the powder is not consumed until well into the first inch of the barrel. One way the normal shooter that doesn't have a lot of scientific pressure measuring equipment can prove this to himself is to load a one-inch snub nose .38 ( like the S&W Chief's Special) with 10 gr. of 2400 under a cast 158 gr. lead bullet and fire it inside a large plastic garbage bag. The bullet will exit but the unburned powder can be collected, if careful to get it all, from inside the bag. I've collected as much as 4 gr. of unburned powder doing this test. (I fire 5 rounds and divide the total amount collected by 5) With 2 inchers and above it's all burned...even slow powders. So actually with 2 and 3 inch barrels slow powders can be used somewhat satisfactorily. That's where some of the handgun pressure testing is faulty. If the inducer or sensor is placed in the barrel and peak pressure is gained before the bullet passes the sensor, the less pressure existing when it does pass will be read instead of the peak pressure. Obviously the same amount of powder but in a different size cartridge case will give different pressures. When 10 gr. of 2400 is fired in a .38 Special case it is no doubt a PlusP load. But in the .357 magnum case it is a medium load and in the .41 magnum case it is a mild load. One of the things that Remington did a number of years ago is to find the reason for for guns being damaged with target ammo was to place the bullet deeper and deeper into the case. With a .38 Special case and 3.6 gr. Bullseye....15,500 psi was the result of normal loading positions with wadcutters of 147 grains. Push the wadcutter just 1/8 of an inch into the case and the pressure raised to 19,800 psi. With a quarter inch depth to the wadcutter the pressure was above 25,000 psi....and when it was pushed to bottom out the pressure was near 100,000 pounds! ( That is damn near an explosion more than a pressure rate. No wonder there were so many blown handguns with target loads...) Number of years ago a good friend was playing with ball loads in his Cattleman .45 Colt single action revolver. He was using small amounts of fast pistol powder.....really target-type loads. He noticed in one of his loads, the ball was pushed down, way past the halfway point, in the case. He fired it anyway, not knowing of the pressure problems inherent with that kind of loading. It bulged his cylinder at that chamber. Luckily he was able to get another cylinder, and the frame wasn't stretched. This is also why handloaders must be careful in loading long heavy bullets. Since most cylinders only allow so much length of bullet to the mouth of the chambers....the rest of the the length must be pushed into the case, constricting the amount of powder room. With today's hunting trends towards very heavy bullets for the caliber, that means the length of the these bullets is much longer than what the normal loads were just a few years ago. Careful reloading is essential. To give an example of this, the .44 magnum loaded with 250 gr. cast Keith semi-wadcutters vs. the 310 gr. semi-wadcutters in the same case......it is not all weight addition, but also the restriction in the powder space with the 310 gr. bullet that can cause the problems. With 9 gr. of Bullseye under the Keith 250 I get 40,000+ psi. But the in the case with the 310 gr. bullet the same amount of Bullseye give just under 54,000 psi. This is not a load that should be fired in a Ruger Super Blackhawk much less something less strong like a S&W N-frame .44 mag. One of the loads I use in my strong Ruger .45 Long Colt-chambered SA revolver is a 200 gr. cast round-nose bullet over 30 gr. of H4227. At a cost of 29,000 psi plus and 1600 fps velocity, the muzzle energy is 1137 ft. lbs. Which is in the 40 caliber magnums range. A 200 gr. .45 bullet is fairly short in a .45 Colt case, but 29,000 lbs. is a heavy load. My Ruger hasn't complained yet, and I have been shooting it for years......but, and it a big "but"...someone else's Ruger Blackhawk may not be able to stand the pressure, especially over successive firings. Remember steel can become fatigued over many firing and finally let go. And when a revolver lets go....you don't want to be holding it, or even own it. You have suddenly turned a number of hundreds of dollars worth of machinery into scrap metal, along with a few fingers maybe. Ruger's Redhawk is a safer gun in this chambering. Mine also takes the 30/H4227/200CB without a hitch.....and gives outstanding accuracy. I used this load on a feral pig, a pen-raised pig gone wild.....not a Russian-type Boar. At close to three hundred pounds this was still a mini-tank. The 200 gr. roundnose (really, blunt nosed, like a fist) at about 20 yards went through the right shoulder and exited the off side after breaking the left leg just below the shoulder. Piggy went down in front but squealed quite loudly and earned another round in the skull for his performance. The short-barreled .45 Colt/Rugers are the poor man's magnum....and reloaded right will do just about everything a commercial .44 magnum load will do. Ruger by the just began this year (1998) to offer its outstanding Super Redhawk in the .454 chambering. Firing commercial loads of .45 Colt in this Ruger feels like firing .38 wadcutters in an L-frame .357. Like I said in the beginning....pressure in handguns with differing powders is not something you can corral, throw a saddle on and anticipate it's movements while riding. The non-careful reloader is going to get thrown and hard. It's just a matter of time. The best reloading books that I have that give pressure readings are Richard Lee's book MODERN RELOADING and METALLIC CARTRIDGE RELOADING by M.L. McPherson. Both of these authors have taken the time and the money to bring us us pressure readings for both rifle and handgun reloads with powders that are available to the reloader today. ------------------ | |||
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PC, Your velocity with you .44 lever at 1450 fps is the maximum. You reach pressure over 38000 CUP with this load. The honardy XTP aren't the faster in .44 caliber. But is is a very good bullet for hunting because of its expansion. I use for the moment a 240 gr SP bullet with a great velocity at 2250 fps. A safe load in my .444 marlin with a 300 gr bullet can reach 2050 fps as velocity. I'm not the good person, who's pushed a 300 gr at 2222 fps in a .444 Marlin lever rifle. In a bolt action rifle I can reach this velocity. I prefer withdraw 1 or 2 gr of max load, and have a heavy crimp that pushing my lever off limits with a very hot load. Believe me with this way, accuracy is better and bullet is a little bit slower than hot load ( lees than 50 fps). Be safe with your loads. ------------------ | |||
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Wildcatter, You're right. But I don't know in business terms if it is workable or not. Only Marlin made a lever in this caliber, I will ask to my gunsmith if this project can be made. ------------------ | |||
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Wildcatter The bolt face doesn't need to be reduced It will work just fine the way it is the only problem could be if the rim doesn't hit the ejector screw,then you would need to install an ejector similar to a 340 Savage. I have a #4 chambered in 17 Ackly Bee it will extract but not eject.I gutted a 10 shot clip and use it for a brass catcher. SamB Thanks for the article I'm always looking for something else to do with an Enfield. Rich
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quote: In my Marlin 444,I have used both Hornady 300 XTPs and Speer 300 gr. I prefer the Speer bullet, as it is tougher. Both shoot well. Velocity is around 2000 fps. You won't get 2200. These are the heaviest you can shoot in a 38" twist barrel. | |||
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Jed, Did you obtained same velocity with both bullets (Honardy xtp and Speer)? I guess that velocity must be a little bit different with Sp or Hp bullet. ------------------ | |||
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quote: BER007: | |||
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Ber007 thanks for that I will watch my loads for pressure signs, might be pulling a few to bit and reloading them hey, that will teach me. But it is not max in my manual. When I test them I will let you know how they went. Jed for thin skinned stuff I shoot they should be unreal (300xtp's) how much more explosive were they? Regards PC ------------------ | |||
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Jed, Thanks for your reply I was expected a difference regarding velocity about 50 fps. Is less, I have learnt smth.
I suppose that you have used australian powders for your loads. If it is the same thing than with belgian powders, the burning rate of these powders must be less than US powders (nearly equal powder). Withdraw 1 or 2 gr of your max load and do a heavy crimp on the cartridge (only for handguns magnum cartridges). And test the velocity of that. i'm sure it will be safe load. Take care. ------------------ | |||
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quote: PC- I actually have not used them on game, but I did a little test on a 5-gallon pail of fine sand. The XTP went half way through, the Speer went maybe 7/8th through, just short of the far side. A Hornady 265 penetrated the same as the speer 300. | |||
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