Also, we did this on both rifles, but I never mentioned it any where before.... when we started the actual bedding, we mixed up the bedding (now the clock is running) and took out the internal cross bolts (they were just laying in the stock) and dabbed bedding on the "back side" of where the internal cross bolts would lay, then we "gooped" the internal cross bolts and then "poked and tapped" them back into place" in the recess we had routted out for them.

With that done when we were working on the rest of the bedding project in the following minutes.... (1) the internal cross bolts stayed right there and was not prone to falling out (= less stress) and (2) you don't have to worry if the bedding will "migrate" back into that recess before the bedding "chooses" to "squeeze off" towards somewhere else (=less stress).

quote:

Originally posted by ELKampMaster:
Methinks DagaRon (RIP) initially thought that I had massively epoxied the F-Block to the barrel in a fashion which once the glass/steel bedding migrated in arround it that the barrel would be "trapped" in the glass

OR

That it was going to take one hell of a beating to get it out to where it would not be good news for the accuracy of the barrel.

Makes sence to me.

I have a McMillian CZ Express that was reinforced for the .416 Rigby's recoil from the factory. I am kinda scratching my head as to how I should bed it. I've bedded several small bores and mediums, normally using AcraGlass with a bit of steel powder added to the mix to increase density.

All I would like to do is to bed my .416 Rigby for the best possible accuracy, and strength. Do y'all think that lawndart's method will suffice in a McMillian, or would you add some of the above tricks?

Thanks for any opinions/advices!

There are some serious McMillan fans here so I'll let them answer that one.

quote:

Originally posted by ELKampMaster:

There are some serious McMillan fans here so I'll let them answer that one.

It'd be nice if they did?!?!?

More questions:

1) So just to make sure I have this correct, EKM, you used no steelbed in the tang area? Only just behind and in-front-of the rear recoil along the barrel channel correct.

2) I assumed you used some sort of Dremel tool, what about the attached bit, which one was it or did you use several depending on crossbolt routing vs. barrel channel?

3) How much wood if any did you remove along the barrel channel?

4) Did you use the dremel tool along the barrel channel or some other utensil? Curved rasp?

5) I think I'm going with the "steelbed the F-key in first" method. I assume after this is first done with corresponding internal bolts you would make sure and keep the top surface of the F-key clean of glass during the final bedding? How do you assure positive contact of the bedded F-key to the front recoil lug?

Man this is frustrating. I think I'm going to epoxy in the F-Key then three internal cross bolts along with the bedding from the rear recoil lug forward. Maybe sink a piece of all-thread through the wrist and call it good, no cross bolts. This rifle will see little full power loads, hardly ever any 416 wby pressure loads. By the time it cracks or splits if ever I hopefully can afford a synthetic. Or have a rifle built the way I want it.

what i do to hold a stock square for drilling is to insert pieces of ready-rod into the guard screw holes. the rods have to fit snug, wrap a bit of tape on them to get them right.

they should stick out 4 inches or so. THen you place some 2x2 blocks on a 12" piece of 2"x8" and lay the stock down so the rods sit on the blocks. You take some surgical rubber tubing and strap the whole works together (drive some nails in the edges of the 2x8 to wrap the tubing around.

You will have to drill gently, and it helps to have an assistant to hold onto things whilst the works is on the drill press table, but your holes should be square to the stocks axis and cross-section.

Elkampmaster thanks for posting the pics and info. It is very useful.

quote:

Originally posted by ptaylor:

How do you assure positive contact of the bedded F-key to the front recoil lug?

you use 5-minute epoxy or crazy glue to stick the block to the barrel, with the recoil surfaces tight together.

IMO, if you want the main recoil lug and the barrel recoil lug to be garaunteed to both bear fully, you need to bed them at the same time

ptaylor
Per your questions....

1) So just to make sure I have this correct, EKM, you used no steelbed in the tang area?

** No, the main thing in the tang area is to get clearance between the tang steel (think of it as a splitting wedge, poised and aimed --- you want a buffer around it). No steel-bed required IHO.

Only just behind and in-front-of the rear recoil along the barrel channel correct.

** Yes, however, "along the barrel channel includes doing justice to the front recoil lug (F-Block system)

2) I assumed you used some sort of Dremel tool, what about the attached bit, which one was it or did you use several depending on crossbolt routing vs. barrel channel?

** Friend's dremel, variable speed, multiple heads.... one of the more useful was one that looked like a 3/8" tall 55 gallond drum with the shank sticking out the top. You need something that can create corners also.

3) How much wood if any did you remove along the barrel channel?

** Not much, probably just took the finish off; however. a gunsmith that did the 458 Lott conversion said I should have went a bit deeper --- this was on European CZ Stocks and the fit the steel pretty darn tight --- American, I don't know.

4) Did you use the dremel tool along the barrel channel or some other utensil?

** Yes, dremel almost exclusively.

Curved rasp?

**No, but it might be a good thing.

5) I think I'm going with the "steelbed the F-key in first" method. I assume after this is first done with corresponding internal bolts you would make sure and keep the top surface of the F-key clean of glass during the final bedding? How do you assure positive contact of the bedded F-key to the front recoil lug?

** As I asked myself the same question, is when I came up with the idea of epoxying it onto the barrel just like I wanted it and then let the glass go where it may and fill in all the spaces. (Space and slack and slop and loose action screws are your enemy with a big bore.)

NOTE: Once I had the slider nut for the forearm screw in the proper position for assembly, then I peen the edge of the channel/steel so it couldn't move (maybe a little movement -- but to where the screw will catch the nut every time --- you don't want to "miss it" when your rifle is wet in glass.)

Then I filled the unused space in the slider-nut channel with clay so the the glass/steel bedding compound could NOT migrate into that space and "capture" the barrel.

-- Man this is frustrating. I think I'm going to epoxy in the F-Key then three internal cross bolts along with the bedding from the rear recoil lug forward. Maybe sink a piece of all-thread through the wrist and call it good, no cross bolts.

**Per the Lott article (and others) the recoil flexing the thin sides of the mag box outward along with the tang ramming wood in the wrist are the greatest threats.

External cross bolts and releaving the tang are two c-r-u-c-i-a-l steps to controlling that. If Ray Atkinson (damn near universally respected) were here he'd beat on you to do it.

Many production magnums do external cross bolts and no internal corss bolts or steel bedding (as both steps are expensive time-wise) nonetheless, I would cross bolt fore and aft of the mag well or take it to someone who can.

-- This rifle will see little full power loads, hardly ever any 416 wby pressure loads.

** Factory 400's at 2400 fps are still no walk in the park.

-- By the time it cracks or splits if ever I hopefully can afford a synthetic.

** Or you could just learn how to do it right and then you own the knowledge and can use it to defray any future big bore projects.

-- Or have a rifle built the way I want it.
** Like a 500A2?

free_miner,

** Your post follows along the lines I was thinking regarding F-block treatment and how much to bed at one time.

** I had an email that indicated that the American CZ does not have A=N=Y cross bolts not even the wrist bolt and so how does one determine "level-ness".

Reflecting on it today, I came up with the answer and then I see you stole my thunder. Yes, the rear "bottom metal" screw hole (aft @ the trigger guard) is long enough and true enough that one should be able to stick a dowel or all thread thru it to where it extends out on either side 4-5" so as to establish a "reference plane" versus the drill press plate or the mounting board in order to indicate the longitudinal "roll" and show you when you have it right, i.e. both sides are equal distance off of the "deck" or mounting board.

I hadn't thought in terms of anchoring the gun with the "leveling rod" itself. I would probably anchor the gun with the 1x3 through the mag well and the C-clamps onto that.

BTW, the idea of mounting it onto a separate board has merit though.

The rod thru the action screw hole only gives you one dimension though. One also needs an indicator to show how much up or down is needed on the forearm so theat the bore (if the barrel was in the stock) would be parallel to the deck. One could carefully scribe a pencil line down the length of forearm barrel "cavity" and then "sight it" parallel to the drill press deck or the mounting board. That will give you the "second dimension" of "levelness" needed to get a square on hole.

There is more than one way to skin this cat. IMHO, the key is to take your time and work up to that "magic moment" when your rifle is gooped in wet bedding and the clock is running or that magic moment when the drill bit is chewing into the side of your "baby".

Think every thing through. We even rehearsed it with a set of notes taped to the wall ala checklist b/c there is a time for thinking and a time for doing. When the rifle is wet in glass the thinking better have already all been done and now you are just executing.

External cross bolts are a seperate action and I recommend doing them first so if your crossbolt hole erupts through the wood (inside the stock where you didn't want it to, then your glass bed can cover the sin. Conversely, I would NOT want the drill bit "clipping" glass bed that was alread there.

It is exciting. "You bought a new rifle and you are doing WHAT to it?" Nonetheless bigbores are serious business and a different league. Above 375HH, the cartridge is overtly hostile to the un-reinforced stock.

woodspacer,

This thread has been around a long time. A lot of the old pros are kind of weary of it I think and that is okay --- they have contributed a lot (no pun intended) already.

Rather than hoping they will "stop by" and read back your post go ahead and start your own "MacMillian/CZ/416 Rigby techniques needed" thead and pose your question there and I'm betting you'll get quick attention.

The McMillans probably need their own thread, and I am not expert (ha, ha, ha, I am definitely not expert) enough in the art of bedding to moderate it.

FWIW, here is how I go at it with McMillans and big bores.

First thing is I remind myself is that fiberglass is not wood, and vice versa.

I use Steel Bed. If I build a 470 Mbogo I will use Titanium Devcon. The Steel Bed takes die nicely. Reinforced Marine Tex would probably be ok, but I don't know.

I hog out a bit in the recoil lug area, and the barrel chamber area of the stock.

I make all the holes line up with the action and barrel centered in their respective channels left to right, and up and down.

The first pour is in the recoil lug area and forward two inches. Before everything sets up I confirm alignment fore and aft.



I treat the back edge of that "thingie" that projects down from the barrel as another recoil lug. I want to have it, and the main lug bearing on their mating surfaces at the same time and with the same force. I try and make sure the main lug is well mated as I do the second pour all the way to the front of the barrel channel. Big bore gun barrels are pretty thin relative to the cross section of the hole inside of them. I figure (rightly or wrongly) that a full length bed decreases all the whipping around as the blivet heads down range like a bowling ball through a python.

A third, small mini-pour under the rear tang keeps all the metal work level when screws/bolts are cinched down.

Ibid for the fourth pour under the bottom metal fore and aft.

So far this method seems to give a lot of strength without a lot of fuss.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by ELKampMaster:

The rod thru the action screw hole only gives you one dimension though. One also needs an indicator to show how much up or down is needed on the forearm so theat the bore (if the barrel was in the stock) would be parallel to the deck.

you use a rod in both front and rear screw holes, and the blocks the rods sit on have to be the same height sitting on the board. It is not perfect, but beats eyballing things. If you are using a longer board to sit things on, you can measure the hieghts to the front and rear sling swivel and check that they are equal.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

I use Steel Bed. If I build a 470 Mbogo I will use Titanium Devcon. The Steel Bed takes die nicely. Reinforced Marine Tex would probably be ok, but I don't know.

LD

I use the Ti Devcon in changing port dimensions for tuning my two stroke woods racing quad. That stuff is quite expensive!

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if I should just send my 1" CZ rings and the McMillian to AHR to build my .470 Mbogo......I am REALLY wanting one to play with!!!!!

Well, here we go, the comedy of errors begins.

After routing in a spot for my internal crossbolt just aft of the F-key, I laid in epoxy, every thing fit perfectly nice and snug, I checked the fit a dozen times. Laid the glass last night this morning when trying to fit the action back in the stock realized the F-key had been shoved forward a minute amount! I can get the action in the stock but its too far forward, the guard screws are off......FUCK!!!

I'm going to have to slowly remove metal from the front of the f-key and check fit until it lines up.

I'm pissed now and I'm going to finish this if I have to make the entire stock out of steel bed.

I'll have another update on monday, I'm going skiing.

Agrhh! Even if one is "just glassing the F-Block" the rifle needs to be fully assembled before even minor bedding starts to set up and on thru the process until it is fully cured to ensure that all the tolerances are maintained. The video tape that Brownells sells with the bedding compound may be a sound investment. For now, EKM flees thread in angst!

I've recovered from my error. Was able to grind back the F-key to a perfect fit, very lucky, I laid in the 2nd internal crossbolt and glassed the whole forearm in. Worked perfectly except for a few small voids I will fill in tonight.

I think I've managed to redeem myself somewhat.

On to the mag well.
1) EKM, where did you lay glass in the mag well? Front,sides and rear?

2) Did you remove wood from around the mag box? Or just hit it lightly to rough up finish.

3) What technique did you utilize to keep glass from running places you didn't want it to? More modeling clay?

a) What about the tang and wrist? Should I lay a small amount of glass in the tang? Should I sink a rod through the wrist?

I've decided to go all internall crossbolts, 3 total. First behind F-key, Second behind recoil lug, third just behind mag box in front of trigger, the spot where an external one would go.
I'm using 3/8" diameter all-thread stainless rod for all crossbolts. I was able to cut them to specific lengths enabling me to extend them into the side wood. I feel this will be strong enough. I'm willing to experiment a little to see if it works. Time will tell.

So many of the tips you have given me so far have been usefull I can't remember them all. They should incude a copy of this post in with the SteelBed directions. Thanks!!!

I am glad to hear you have recovered from the F block episode.

-- On to the mag well.

1) EKM, where did you lay glass in the mag well? Front,sides and rear?

** On the 416 Rigby we did front and back and sides and wished I wouldn't have. We managed to get the mag "box" free with a punch and hammer. We were lucky. I'm convinced it did not strenghten it much at all, made a mess though. With the American CZ stock it is thicker through this area anyway. I'd leave it alone, unless you move up to 500A2 and maybe even then.

** Per the pix and text way back when we did add a piece of metal to the front of the mag box. This has two advantages. (1) It won't allow your bullets to indent the front of the mag box which doesn't enhance feeding IMHO, and (2) if you measure it right, the added piece of metal will fill the gap between the front of the mag box and the front of the mag well which should help more even flow of "shock".

2) Did you remove wood from around the mag box?

** No, wood is at its thinnest and weakest here. I would recommend against anymore than just removing the finish --- if you just have to do it. I WOULD NOT DO IT.

-- Or just hit it lightly to rough up finish.

** See above.

3) What technique did you utilize to keep glass from running places you didn't want it to? More modeling clay?

Modeling clay, stuffed paper towels, stuffed cotton, and in screw holes and other small spaces --- Vaseline.

a) What about the tang and wrist?

** No bedding on either one for this boy.
I would not do a wrist cross bolt on the CZ American. I WOULD make sure there is a 1/16 (2/32) to 3/32 gap between the tang metal SIDES AND REAR (not bottom) and the surrounding wood - just route it out a little bit but make it SYMETRICAL so it don't look like crap. DON'T fill this gap in with anything. You do NOT want a tight wood to steel fit in THIS spot or it makes for your action and tang becoming a splitting maul!

-- Should I lay a small amount of glass in the tang?

** Not for this boy.

-- Should I sink a rod through the wrist?

** RIP followed both my projects 416 Rigby and 458 Lott and never pushed the idea of a steel rod in the wrist, although it seems to be standard practice for the 500A2.

-- I've decided to go all internall crossbolts, 3 total. First behind F-key, Second behind recoil lug, third just behind mag box in front of trigger, the spot where an external one would go.

** You will find the one behind the mag box to be tricky. That little "spider" of wood is delicate and even drilling a sub 1/4' hole thru it install an external cross bolt to keep the sides from "bowing out" made me plenty nervous. 3/8" is going to be real harry in my mind. The one in front of the mag box will have lots of wood and surrounding structure and BEDDING to "hold onto". NOT SO on this one. Your trigger, safety and action parts occupy the open areas.... you can't bed them shut (best not to IMHO). BTW, if you are glassing on this end of the gun, then REMOVE the trigger assembly if you haven't already --- one good drip of glass could render the trigger useless.

** It seems you are allergic to the external cross bolts, so there is not much I can say.... Good Luck.

I'm using 3/8" diameter all-thread stainless rod for all crossbolts. I was able to cut them to specific lengths enabling me to extend them into the side wood. I feel this will be strong enough. I'm willing to experiment a little to see if it works. Time will tell.

** Just so you know.... ask a local gunsmith what he would charge to put in a set of cross bolts. No one, and I mean no one I have seen that bothered to do this work skimped on the external cross bolts for and aft of the mag box. In his article Jack Lott went to great length to explain why they were so important....
internal cross bolts spread impact.... external cross bolts hold wood together tight so it can't start to split and makes wood much less susceptable to mag well wall flexing. Two different tools. Two different purposes.

Finished product. Besides knock down of sharp edges and final cleanup of clay. Scope arrives in a few days Leupold VXII 1-4 I got it used for a grood deal.

I just did the front and rear of the mag well.

Thinking about it know I wish I had done the sides but there wasn't much room to add strength anyway so it would have been much work for little benefit.

I contemplated very long and hard on the external crossbolts and made a decision right/wrong its done.
It came down to:
a) time, I'm taking this thing to TX in early May, every gunsmith around here had a 3 month wait.
b) money, I'm in grad school and I have very little.
c) availability, every place I checked for crossbolt jigs was out of stock and I don't have or have access to a drill press.

EKM, I'm just letting you know I appreciate your help and by not putting the external CB's in is not a reflection on how I take your advice. I don't think I could have managed this project without your help.





Couple final question:
1) what type of sealant/coating should I put on the now exposed wood.

2) EKM, knowing exaclty what has been done to this rifle would you shoot it? I'm just curious.

I'll post some final pics when its all assembled and give a range report. I plan on driving this thing really hard to test the structural integrity of my work, hope all goes well.

How many internal cross bolts did you get in?

Nice looking glass job, I see you relieved the tang --- good for you.

The bedding kit comes with color (brown) packets, we used some to touch up the spots where the bedding "stripped the finish."

Others say strip all the "cheap CZ finish" and do a hand rubbed oil thing.

Assuming you got the two forward internal cross bolts in, then I'd make the appointment to get the exterior cross-bolts in and in the mean time go shoot and hope for the best during that time. Make sure your action screws are TIGHT and check them after you shoot some. If your action gets loose at this level of recoil bad things happen.

I wouldn't go hot rodding the loading, IMHO my Rigby with max loads kicks as much as my Lott with max loads.
=============================

Congrats, it took a leap of faith and self confidence to take a brand new rifle and just "go after it". You are definitely more of a Big Bore man now than when you started this project!

Welcome to the club! Rigby's are a very special cartridge --- enjoy.

PS. Take the first rounds standing up. Don't even put your face down to line up the sights, just slam a couple into the backdrop until you are "formally introduced" and "know what you've got." Hold on to the forearm tight and don't let the front sling turret rest against "the side" of your left pointer finger knuckle --- I am long armed so I grab right on top of it --- it can bite you --- there is a reason why they put on barrel bands for the front sling swivel.

When it comes time to sight in your scope, sit with your stomoach touching the bench and your back straight up and down --- I don't care how many sandbags it takes (14 for me). DON"T lean down and low and into it....

I put three 5/16" (not 3/8" misprint) diameter crossbolts in.

Thanks for the shooting advice. Reading posts on this website all the time about, 600OK 550mag, 500a2, etc., makes me feel like the 416 is a pop-gun. Your last post has just brought me back to the realization that this thing is going to KICK!

I will have a range report complete with chrono results as soon as it all comes together.

My first dozen rounds or so will be 350grainers at around 2100fps and I will move up from there.

Have you thought about installing a barrelband sling swivel? What are the pros/cons? Seems like an easy install, only thing that bothers me is the impact change caused by slinging tightly up.

How does your 416 shoot? Does it hold 1.5 MOA out to 300yards?

quote:

Have you thought about installing a barrelband sling swivel? What are the pros/cons? Seems like an easy install, only thing that bothers me is the impact change caused by slinging tightly up.

I've looked at the barrel bands (they are so African!) but they are about $60 AND you have to take off your soldered on front sight to get them into place, so since I'm long armed, I just grab over/onto it.

Following up on this thread, I see in the advertisements that the new CZ 550 Safari Magnums appear to now have cross-bolts installed from the factory whereas earlier they did not with.

Are cross-bolts alone proving to be enough, or are folks tending to add the internal crossbolts and glass bedding in addition?

The factory cross-bolts with good bedding have held well on my .505 Gibbs.