The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What is a reasonable expectation of 375H&H accuracy?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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After the topic a few days ago about expecting too much from a 375, I got to thinking a little more on the subject. I have been working with a new Model 70 Safari in 375 H&H myself the past couple weeks. I have always understood that 375's have a reputation for fine accuracy. But what is the level one should expect? As an example: I recently mounted a new Leupold VX1 2-7 on my "new" Model 70 Safari to get some load development done. I had already loaded some 300 gr. Sierras over IMR 4350. Initial sight in at 50 yards got me where I wanted to be on paper, and since the target was already up, I shot a few groups. 75.0, 77.0, and 79.0 grs of 4350 all shot beautiful three shot groups...at fifty. I thought I was on a role, so I loaded up some more of the 79.0 gr. load. This morning I shot three more three shot groups at 100 yards. Disappointment was the result of this morning's shoot... the three shot groups measured about 1.75", 2.25" and 1.5". Now, for hunting, this is probably OK.... But, what should be a reasonable expectation of the ol' 375? | ||
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I've owned two .375 H&H Magnums and both would shoot about 1.5 MOA with about half of the randomly-chosen loads I tried. Very close to MOA (i.e. .75 to 1.25 MOA) was found with about 1/3 of the loads I tried. No load ever shot worse than than about 1.8 MOA. Never shot factory loads in either, so I have no idea of how they would perform. I didn't try to improve on near MOA performance, because , to tell the truth, shooting MOA with this much recoil takes more concentration than I can supply sometimes! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} It is also kind of silly to worry about sub-MOA accuracy with this kind of rifle too -- one doesn't shoot tiny critters at 400m with a .375 too often. However, both my rifles were more accurate than a few factory varmint rifles I've shot... that is for as long as I could stand the recoil. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} One of my rifles was .375 H&H was a Brno 602, the other is a Sako AV (i.e. the older 2-lug bolt model, not the current 3-lug style). Compared to other calibres I've loaded for (.222 Rem, .223 Rem, 243 Win, .270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, 308, 30-06, .338 Win Mag, 358 Norma Mag, and some I can't recall now), I'd have to say that only the .222 Rem is as obliging and non-fussy to load for. Now that I think of it, I could be happy with only a .222 Rem and a .375 H&H as long as I could reload so that I could tailor loads to the game in question. jpb [ 09-03-2003, 21:44: Message edited by: jpb ] | |||
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My personal accuracy standard varies with calibers, but they are all fairly close. I am fortunate that my Model 70 375 shoots handloads into .5" all day. With factory Winchester loads ( the old style Silvertips) opened up to about 1.25". Now when i mix solids and softs, the best I've come up with is 1.75," that is, two Aframes into .5" or less and the solids always lands within the 1.75". For the game solids are intended for, 1.75" is plenty good for me. jorge | |||
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I would be happy with 1.5" groups in a hunting situation you would not use that kind of accuracy any way. I am more interested in the bullet I am using rather than wethetr it shoots 1" or 2". However for a 22/250 or the likes that changes, then I want under 1" ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Trapdoor, I have found .375s easy to load for. The Remington factory load with the 300 grain Swift A-Frame is a notoriously good shooting load. I know it delivers half-inch 3-shot groups in three different rifles. Another shooter I know is going quietly bonkers trying to find a handload that will equal the Remington load. You might try it in your rifle, and see how your rifle shoots with this known good load. jim dodd | |||
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I agree that the 375H&H seems to be really easy to load for. Personally I'd be happy with 1.5 inch groups but both my Remingtons shot just on MOA (3 shot groups) with the first load I tried in them. Took all the fun out of shooting I reckon... More importantly they both shoot the first round from a cold barrel right where I want it.Cheers... Con | |||
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I just got back from the range a little while ago and I went specifically to sight in my Browning a-bolt in 375, it has 26" barrel. After several rounds I retightened the Leupold QRW and the groups tightened up considerably. This gun loves hornady 300RN and Barnes 270 solids, the best 3 shots groups where under 1". I will be using sierra 300 spbt for the caribou hunt and it was shooting these at slighly over 1". The next runner up was sierra 250 spbt which again shot under 1 ". The accuracy on this gun is equal to how well my shooting technique is at that moment, if I am doing my thing the browning makes me proud. I would love to see this gun in the hands of a master to see exactly what it is capable of. In some cases I have keyholed 2 shots only to flub the 3rd. again the gun is rested. The 375 is an accurate round if the shooter is up for it. My velocities where approx 2530 fps for the 300's and 2700 for the 270 and 250's, these where chronographed, most had H4895 for powder | |||
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Trapdoor, How new is this rifle? My .375 needed a little breaking in (about 40-50 rounds) before it's accuracy stabilized. Also, the level of recoil from shooting a .375 from the bench can sometimes affect even the most recoil-hardened shooters. I seem to get along with the .375 for a while off the bench, but not for too long. When I shoot the .416 off the bench I really have to concentrate and not let the recoil affect my shooting. Regards, Terry | |||
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what Terry said, and then some... If you can ensure you aren't flinching, It's been MY personal epxerience that bigbores tend to be more forgiving that small bores in reagards to loads.. and will pretty much shoot just as well as any other well made gun.... generally ifyou want moa or better, it's there, just work on your loads. | |||
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Terry and jeff, Rifle is close to two years old with close to 150 rounds thru it... Recoil was a thought, and my "machoness" dismissed it immedately! I have always been able to shoot heavy recoiling rifles well...at least I think so! Dad broke me in a while ago by seeing if I could better his groups out of his .458! I did! I do shoot with a Past recoil sheild to help and all shots "felt" right.I felt yesterday that I was doing a good job of not being affected by the recoil...but who knows for sure! This morning was a bit better. Shot one group with the same load, but changed to Winchester brass. It was better than the Rem brass group of yesterday, but not blockbuster. Tried IMR4831 under the same Sierra 300. Had one bad group, but other two were a touch over an inch...so maybe 4831 is the better way to go. I have always felt however that 4831 was a tad too slow for the 375. Maybe not, tho... From this morning's test, I will try some more of 74.0 4831. It is a starting load, but it gave the best accuracy. I wouldn't think a little less velocity should make too much of a difference. I don't really think I need a max load for elk...on down to prairie dogs! [ 09-04-2003, 20:29: Message edited by: Trapdoor ] | |||
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I use W760, and get sub-MOA with my M70. My Sako AV .375 shot even better with the same load. Try switching powder. George | |||
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quote:To me, this is the problem. To get really good, offhand, with a rifle, takes a LOTT of practice. I just don't see that as enough practice. That's why I'm putting a brake on mine. I want to be able to shoot my 375 just like it was a 308, or 223, all day. I'm also after a press that loads ammo fast enough to keep up with my shooting habits... s | |||
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I've found that RL15 provides the best accuracy and potentially the highest velocity in most of the 375 H&Hs I've worked with but you need to be careful with RL15 and work up as it seems to have a potential for significant results with different lots of powder...also you might want to check you aren't crimping the bullets to much. Otherwise a couple of things to look at...(1) the crown on the barrel as it doesn't take much to mess things up if it isn't just right...(2) the trigger pull won't affect intrinsic accuracy but it will affect how well you can shoot.. (3) you might try putting a scope with more magnification (although 7X should be fine) depending on the reticle.....and (4) are you holding onto the forend with your non-trigger hand? If you are, don't and try to make sure the forend is supoorted the same each time ...assume you are using a solid rest of some type. Here's a tip! Rest the stock farther back toward the receiver and away from the front..2nd tip...make sure the stud for the sling isn't dragging on anything as you shoot. | |||
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quote:RL15 is apperantly the best powder out there, but I started to get pressure signs with it at 67gr behind a 300gr bullet... Alot of guys here use 72gr of RL15 behind a 300gr, but it was WAY over max for me. I'm using Rl19, a little slower. | |||
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I am pretty timid and do not press the envelope in reloading, but I have found the 72.0 grain RL-15 load in Winchester brass with a 300 grain X-Bullet and F215 primer to be my most excellent load in my featherweight .375 H&H. Mine is a stainless Douglas No.3 contour sporter on a Pre-64 M70 action in a 1 pound stock by Brown Precision. It will do 2529 fps and 3/4 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards, with this load. Maybe a tighter bore/chamber will require less powder or get higher velocities/pressures, but I think mine is about average. The .375 H&H has no accuracy issues as a cartridge, certainly. The rifle and the "shottist" are the determining factors. | |||
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Gatehouse......RL15 can vary quite a bit from lot to lot and it can drive me a little nutty. The first time I loaded for mine I couldn't get past 2450 fps without pressure signs....when I changed lots the same load (powder amount, primer, seating depth, and neck tension) took me almost to 2600 fps...bullet was the 300gr Nosler Partition. When I find a lot of RL15 I like I tend to buy as many as I can find. Varget is, however, a pretty close substitue for RL15 but of course you can't load the same weight of powder without working up a bit. | |||
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Trapdoor, Loadin' my Jaeger/Whitworth hot with 4350 at the beginning gave me thumbnail-sized groups at 100 yahds. I was so blown away, I've neveh attempted to try anything else. After all, the bullet was a Nosler 300 gr. PT. WhatheHell else did I need? Now in answeh to yer original question, I donnot think that this is "reasonable" accruacy. I think it's bloody amazin' . . . but I'll take it. If you can come up with consistant loads that produce 1.5 MOA, yer doin' good, considerin' the size of the critters y'll be afteh. Quitzcherbellyakin' | |||
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Thanks Bill... That's exactly my experience. I couldn't get anywhere near 72gr without pressure signs, and the velocity was low... I'd actually liek to switch all my loads over to Hodgons these days..They always seems consistent to me. | |||
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I CONCUR that most .375s have always been easy to feed. When I finally decided to work on my "ultimate" I settled on the Win.model 70. Cut the bbl to 21" had it all squared and trued then fit into a McMillan Kevlar stock and then had G&H take off over bore mount installed. the last "touch" was the McArthur brake. This was followed by a liberal application of Brownell's krinkle paint in black on stock AND steel. Now I have an 8 pound .375 that is impervious to weather and can transition from scope to iron to scope about as fast as I could type this sentence. Recoil is in the .243 class and so concentration on shots is NOT a problem. Seems no matter what is thrown down the tubes it ranges from 3/4-1 1/4" which make it easily minute of moose, or squirrel ..if so desired(a little Bullwinkle humor there) It is my favorite all around one gun rifle. capable of taking large game close enough to smell the salmon on the brownies breath or reach out and knock down bambi at 400yds. | |||
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quote:I plan on trying Re 15 in the future...but right now, I am working with what I have...mostly IMRs. quote:Just the tiniest hint of a crimp...could really say no crimp. quote:1)My untrained eye doesn't see a problem... emphasis on untrained. 2)I have lightened the trigger...very nice, now. About 2 1/2 lbs. with no creep or overtravel. I didn't know I could adjust a trigger so nice! 3)Have thought about this...but dont have one laying around right now...maybe in the future when money isn't quite as tight. I am not happy with the reticle in the 2-7...too heavy for me. I have always been a crosshair lover and a duplex hater...but for now, I have to make due. 4)Thus far, I have been taming the forend with my off hand. I have thought about trying it as you suggested. I am using a solid rest...Witchita with appropiate bag, front and rear. Thanks for the tip...and the front stud isn't a problem (mounted on barrel). Rear stud is impossible to stay away from completely... | |||
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Thanks to all who have chimed in...all things to "look at"! Work is still continuing....shot a couple more groups with 4831 on Friday evening and something about the groups struck me as a little odd. Am thinking that I may have a bedding problem.... First three shot group had two touching and one "flyer". Second three shot group had one "flyer" and two almost touching. When I superimposed the groups, the two "flyers" (last shot of first group and first shot of second group) were their own group and the other four made up their own group. | |||
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Trapdoor, What 2-7 scope do you have that you are not happy with? I might be interested and live just down the road. | |||
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SBT, I'm happy with the scope...just not the duplex reticle. Unfortunately, most scopes these days don't come with a crosshair...so I am stuck with the duplex unless I want to spend a little more and get it changed. I suppose its fine for hunting, but it is a bit too heavy for paper...Once I get the "paperwork" done, it'll do. It is a Leupold VX1...nice scope. I waited over a year for Leupold to offer the VX1 in matte...and for once, it actually worked in my favor. Otherwise I was going to have to spend an extra $60 just for the matte finish... | |||
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Trapdoor....you will need a magnifying glass to take a good look at the crown...take out the bolt and fix it so some light will come thru the barrel from the chamber end.....look at the crown with a magnifying glass. What you are looking for, in the worse case, would be a nick but it could be something as hard to spot as a small burr. The light coming thru the barrel should also help you notice if the the lands don't appear to be "square" with the barrel. Most gunsmith's don't charge a lot to recrown a barrel but if you are handy there are fairly easy ways to do it at home with tools at hand. Check the internet for how as there must be a lot of places that tell you how. | |||
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You guys need to give H-414 a try, HONEST! My rifle, an unmodifed Model 70 ( first year of production of the new Classic line CRFs) shoots "one holers" with 300 grain Swifts and Hornady solids. Fed 215 primers and WW brass. No shit guys, give it a try. jorge | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What is a reasonable expectation of 375H&H accuracy?
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