I am wondering how many of you feel that the 338 RUM has replaced the 375 H&H as the "one gun for everything" round. The actions and bolt faces are the same, as is magazine capacity and the 338 shoots 160 to 300 gr bullets vs the 375 at 200 to 300 grs.

In addition, the 338 RUM loads down very nicely with AAs XMP 5744 to deer friendly velocities, retaining 1 MOA accuracy. I launch 180 gr Nosler BTs at 2950 fps and get '06 recoil to boot. At the other end of the scale AA8700 pushes 300 grain Hawk bullets to 2720 fps at safe pressures. In the middle range, I use R25 to launch Speer 225 SPs at 3240 fps for big critters way out yonder.

To top things off, 3 of the major bullet manufacturers now use the 338 RUM exclusively for testing all 338 caliber bullets because of inherent accuracy.

In fairness, i should mention that the 375 brass is $36 per hundred compared to $55 for the 338...that's worth smething...

Trouble with all these newer magnums is that, flexible as they are, they have no "soul." Now, that may not sound like a proper criterion for assessing a cartridge, but in the long run it is important. If a cartridge develops a lore and a persona in the minds of users and in the literature of hunting, it can survive. Witness the .45-70 and the 7X57, for example. The .375 H&H probably has more lore than any cartridge extant. It has been with us for 91 years. Remington, on the other hand, is famous for introducing a new batch of cartridge flavors every year, many of which make a great deal of sense on paper. But then Big Green drops them after a few years, never to look back. The lore falls away or never really gets established, interest in the cartridge falters and before you know it, is "in the discard" as Elmer Keith used to say. If hunting were only about rational processes, and hunters were all like Spock, an RUM might be "best." But hunting is about passion.

[ 05-31-2003, 21:05: Message edited by: Bill/Oregon ]

Sabot,

I'd agree with Bill that the .375H&H reeks nostalgia and hunting is about a passion. The .338RUM is a great round but wouldn't be legal for any big stuff in Africa. That said, I now shoot a .375RUM. What the RUMs lack in nostalgia they more than make up for in versatility.

Joe

OOPS! I did neglect the 375 caliber restriction in Africa. That is a big deal. Going up to the 375 RUM does not make sense to me, as the H&H shoots the same range of bullet weights and can be had in Hornady or Federal high energy versions, putting the energy right there with the 338 RUM. Factory ammo is on the shelf in stores everywhere big critters are hunted. Its not all just nostalgia...

The 338 RUM is too fast for Dangerous game IMO, recoil too sharp, and the gun is too noisy...I would rather have a 338 Winchester with a 300 gr. Woodleigh at 2400 FPS..velocity causes too quick and too fast expansion on very large animals, thus regardless of the SD the bullet is stopped due to its wide fast expanding face..the 375 starts out larger and the bullets are tougher as a rule. The 2400 FPS rule is something I believe in..the Rum began life as a failed caliber and it will go by the wayside as many of Remingtons calibers do and then they will quick making brass...The 375 H&H will always be with us. I will take all bets.

The facts are when you cut through the hype, the cross section of the 375 tops the 338 anyway you cut it, but only on the big stuff like Buffalo, Elephant and perhaps Lion.

The cross section of a solid is all important also, the bigger the caliber the better a solid kills...

Sabot

Actually you can get .375 bullets to 400 grains. The 350 Woodleigh shoot very well indeed.

I strongly agree with Ray ..... too much velocity is NOT a good thing. I learned this last year in Africa.

Sabot

Lets assume the gun is to be the once in a life time custom rifle. Then the 375 and I think for a few reasons.

For the special rifle you would like to know it is legal for all game in Africa, even if you are not likely to go. The 338 fails in that area.

For the special rifle you would like to know it is "complete" with no major shortfalls and that would include being able to get ammo world wide. The 338 Ultra will be poor once you leave America.

It has been proven for too many years that the general velocity area of the 3008, 30/06 and 375 is about right in that it is never too wrong.

Barrel life for the 375 is in the real long life area and the 338 Ultra is going to be on the short side.

For precision shooting without a muzzle brake there are very few people who can handle more recoil than a 375 while letting the rifle just "sit" as they would a 270 or 30/06. The 338 adds not only more recoil but lots more blast. In fact in my experience a 375 loaded with full loads of Reloader 15 or heavy compressed loads of 4350 can become a bit much as compared to loads that duplicate original ballistics and similar powder weight, such as when 3031 or 4064 are used.

For a special rifle the 375 will also be easier to live with. The reason being that the 375 is not a "velocity" calibre and that allows a wider range of loading as you only need accuracy. The 338 Ultra to deliver total happiness needs more accuracy than a 375 (to justify the velocity) and you also need you accurate loads at peak velocity to justify the 338 Ultra.

You mentioned reduced loads. If all else is equal the 375 will always be better because of the smaller case capacity. Being of bigger bore it will also always be better for cast or paper patch since now the velocity of both calibres is similar and the 375 has bigger bullets. If squib loads are used the belted case of the 375 also prevents the ever increasing headspace that occurs with each shot from a rimless case.

Mike

The .375 would be the better choice for Africa due to the frontal area if you need solids , and due to ammo availability .

However , for N. American use , or Arfican plains game , the .338 has alot going for it and would be somewhat better suited in my view . Most of the factory .375 rifles are needlessly heavy and too clumsy to pack around for American use . For stuff from pronghorn to moose , the RUM would work great ,and shoot flatter . Alot of .375 users seem to like the 270 gr bullets pushed to 2800 fps . Such a load with an equivalent bullet would be easier to achieve with the RUM and at lower pressure.

I have to wonder about the magic 2400 fps. It seems Saeed manages to easily bump off quite a bit of stuff with his .375 pushed to about 2700 fps. It also seems the .30/06 , and also the original .375 H&H loading of the 270 gr work pretty well several hunded fps faster , for general hunting purposes .

[ 06-01-2003, 14:32: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Gentlemen, one and all -

These are all great insights and I can't argue with any of them. The ability to get the 350 gr Woodleigh makes a big difference as it gives the 375 almost as much sectional density as a 300 gr 338.

Sabot, I would have to go along with Ray and Frank. At the distances dangerous game is normally shot, the .375 H&H made it's reputation at the lower speeds. Another thing that appeals to me about the older round is it's shape which is conducive to smooth feeding. An important attribute in my opinion. The .376 Steyr interests me for the same reasons although I think R&D in this round is in it's infancy at this point. Just off topic for a moment, the .376 Steyr Pro Hunter w/20" barrel really appeals to me a lot because of it's handiness, synthetic stock and the SBS system. I'm not sure there is such a thing as the perfect one gun rifle, but this setup strikes me as close.

The 375 H&H and the .338 Ultra are two totaly different cartridges. Sort of like comparing the 30-378 and the 35 whelen, the 35 is a better killer up close, but the 30-378 has some more usable range. Apples and ....
If you live and hunt in North America I think the Ultra will kick the 375s lore and nostalgia around the block a time or two.

IMO the 338 Ultra is here to stay.

I disagree with some of the old school guys about the 2400 fps thing, unless you are exclusively going after something big and dangerous.

I think the question should have been, "Do you think the 375 Ultra will replace the 375 H&H as a one round for everything." The answere to that is probably no. In my opinion the Ultra is a better all round choice (especialy with heavy bullets), but most will be of the opinion that the Ultra is too fast, too much recoil etc. I have a 375 Ultra and don't mind the recoil at all. It's no 378 for recoil so have no fear. For some reason it seams to kick less sharply than my 338 Ultra.
A 300 grain premium bullet at 2700-2800 should be as good as it gets (nice low pressure) for all around use in Africa.

Just my thoughts

Jamie