Michael posted some pictures of various bullets in the most recent "Question for Michael" thread and Tanz just posted some pictures of some Barnes TSX bullets in the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread. For me, this raised the question as to why even bother with lead core bullets for hunting DG anymore? The Swift is sure a great bullet and so is the conventional lead core Woodleigh. However, the Woodleigh Hydro, North Fork Cup Point, Barnes TSX, and CEB non con will do as much damage and give you much greater penetration then even the finest lead core bullet. Michael loaded some 45/70 ammo for a guy who took it to Africa and put down a buff with a with a single 400 grain BBW#13. Michael plans to go to Africa with 50 B&M Alaskan and I have no doubt that the 405 grain BBW%13 will shoot clean through most any buffalo from most any angle. I am a great fan of the Barnes Buster for lever guns here in North America. However, if I was heading to Africa to hunt DG, I am hard pressed to think of a reason to take a lead core bullet. Stick a Woodleigh Hydro, Barnes TSX, NF cup point, or CEB non con in the chamber and some BBW#13s in the magazine sounds pretty good to me.

That soft, pure copper jacket on a Swift A-frame will make your rifling last forever and good rifling makes for accurate shooting.Also the DGS may be the best solid bullet ever invented.

I'm sorry Dave, there appears to be some kind of micro-cephallic gibberish following your OP I can't seem to make out. That said, I think an argument can certainly be made as to support your posit and I tend to agree, I've become a convert to T/TTSXs and CEBs. That said, I don't think I'll ever use them in a few of my rifles & calibers because I've had such good success with Northforks, A Frames Partitions, etc.

I don't think so Dave. There will always be some that fight change or have had wonderful results with the "bullets they have always used". They see no need to switch but sometimes, technology is a wonderful thing.
I've taken 3 buffalo with different cup and core bullets and will try this year to use the CEB's in whatever I take for comparison. Shot some CEB's on Sunday in the new Blaser R8, albeit only at 50 yards but using the same data I had worked up for the BBS. 5 shots in one big ragged hole for the solids and the noncons. About 1/2" group. Good starting point.
But then, there are shooters out there that rely only on factory ammo and their limited to what they have or can find.

No. I'd say less than 5% of DG hunters are bullet cognoscenti. The remaining 95% will buy whatever is on sale, or recommended by a friend or one of the whores who write for the gun rags.

George

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That soft, pure copper jacket on a Swift A-frame will make your rifling last forever and good rifling makes for accurate shooting.Also the DGS may be the best solid bullet ever invented.

Dave,

I'm a fan of mono-metal bullets and they shoot very well in a number of my rifles as well as providing excellent terminal performance but every rifle does not love them. Having said that the Swifts, Northforks, Trophy Bonded, Woodleighs etc all shoot very well in some rifles and better than the mono-metals in some cases. They also kill game quickly so yes I do think there is still a place for lead core bullets.

There are also situations where the mono-metals are not the best recipe in a rifle/cartridge combo. My 375 WBY is built on a M70 action. The magazine box restricts the OACL to a practical 3.58" and that makes the 300 TSX extend so far into the cartridge's powder space that it restricts the powder charge weight and therefore performance. Using the Northfork or Swifts that have shorter OALs allow a max powder charge and full performance on game.

Mark

I wouldn't say "obsolete". They still work
as they have always done.

Starting to be superceeded perhaps.

I was never a fan of mono of any sort
until I had to do a Hydros test for Woodleigh
in one of my doubles (465).

They (Hydros) work (and others) as has been shown by Michael.

Also, as George above said.

Lead core bullets have been around for years,
worked for years and will continue to.

That's my HO.

In my opinion, they will only become obsolete if they are outlawed for environmental reasons.

465H&H

I personally prefer lead and lead cored
just to screw over green pukes. Nothing can't
beat heat-treated lead ones in real big bores...Ed

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That soft, pure copper jacket on a Swift A-frame will make your rifling last forever and good rifling makes for accurate shooting.Also the DGS may be the best solid bullet ever invented.

Not obsessively cleaning your barrel will also contribute greatly to its longevity.

Hell, no! They just work, pure and simple. I've used them all, but prefer Woodleigh softs for buffalo - affordable, safe and devastating.

But... I'm shooting a few buffalo, too, in my backyard. If I was on my one-and-only Cape buffalo trip, I may very well consider the Woodleigh Hydros (I'ved used them with great success here).

I'm a simple kind of guy! I prefer "Really Big Holes" through critical organs with holes on both sides. I consider tons of blood a good sign! I detest that extra 5 yard walk overall!
anything that achieves that goal meets my simple needs! I'd shoot em with a beer can if I could.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That soft, pure copper jacket on a Swift A-frame will make your rifling last forever and good rifling makes for accurate shooting.Also the DGS may be the best solid bullet ever invented.

Not obsessively cleaning your barrel will also contribute greatly to its longevity.

I was cleaning like crazy with A-frames and the barrel still lasted forever.

I have a large supply of Hornady steel jacket FMJs. They were once the standard others were judged against.

Since big bores are getting larger and larger. The bullets now the rage are what was called "solid shot" by tank and anti-tank gunners 70 years ago. Will the Finnish Lahti L-39 be the next fad for big bore?

My answer... NO.

A "good" lead cored bullet will work just fine.

The next really high speed, big bore
is here....700HSM...Shown next to Gibbs.
Be neat to have a Lahti to put it in.
Or I can put skis on the Vulcan.Ed

It looks like lead-core are no longer the only choice for commercial .375 Ruger loads; now it seems DoubleTap offers that caliber in copper solids...

Food for thought or perhaps fuel on the fire.....
Sitting with a couple of PHs during this years SCI show and talk turned to modern bullets and their penetration or in this case over penetration. Buff, the PHs felt as more and more herd Bulls are shot the chances for a through and through with a wounded animal on the other side becomes greater, their concern is who pays for the wounded animal as Zim may fine them up to $5k for the extra animal. They both agreed that the bullet that ends up as a bump under the skin on the off side is the best bullet for them. The responsibility of a clear field behind ones target was discussed but also the follow up shot that may be thrown in haste.
Two PH's opinion what are yours...?

Taking into account that non lead bullets are much longer for weight than lead core bullets, there are certain calibers like my 458 win mag that it becomes problematic to shoot same weight bullets because of case capacity. Thus my thread I just posted today on having problems shooting 450 grain TSX's in my 458.

Dave,

I think good bullets like the Swift A-Frame will always have a place in DG hunting.

That said, I've been shooting 100% monometal bullets since 1995. I've never found a rifle that won't shoot them well to date, assuming the rifle has been properly cleaned prior to switching to them. If the barrel is already fouled, it seems it fouls quickly with the TSX. Starting with a clean barrel, the TSX's accuracy seem to last just as long before degrading. I will say that from my experience however, the big bores are much less susceptible to accuracy loss due to copper fouling. I typically only clean anything over .375 only once per year, if that. Even then, it's usually not necessary from an accuracy standpoint.

In 18 years now, I've never damaged a barrel with a monometal and have never had one fail on an animal. The "overpenetration" issue is a hard one for me to get my head around. I always want an exit with blood and tissue on the ground. I want the bullet to produce as long and large of a wound channel as possible. Attention to what is behind the animal is paramount and I would just have a tough time shooting into a herd, "Hoping" the bullet didn't exit.

One of the primary benefits of the monometal bullet IMO is that they have a much larger performance window in terms of impact velocity.

One further comment about a certain post above concerning the "soft pure copper of the Swift A-Frame" and how it treats your rifling. One of the reasons the TSX got such a bad rap for copper fouling is that the pure copper of the TSX bullet is much, much softer than the copper jacket on conventional lead core bullets.

"I think good bullets like the Swift A-Frame will always have a place in DG hunting."

Me too Todd, here's a 300g A-Frame that still weighed 299.5 grains after penetrating about 4 feet of brown bear

I doubt it.Bigbore owners are a larger group than our community here- we are just the hardcore hobbyists. Even if we 'prove' one idea is best the average guy is still shopping other options out there.

Shooting sports are a luxury not a necessity so any of these choices will still do the job for him. I remember Barnes-x and the 'supersolid' were going to obsolete other DG bullets and even all regular bullet cals down to 223 but of course it never happened..

Also two main groups even with the hardcorsits like us who will always want lead cored.

1.Guys preferring exact classic african or with the high end double will want something like woodleighs hanging out of cartridge belts rather than monometal bullets that look like spare parts from the hardware section.

2.Those who validly prefer soft softs for particularly for plugging medium game. I see a bigbore using a bullet that can't flatten smaller mobile game on the spot as bullet failure personally, and its why I am not overly impressed in all the ultrahard bullets you yanks are coming out with. For culling you want to put things down asap, to get right onto the next one, not wait for things to expire 50yards later or follow blood trails etc etc. In fact its why a lot of aussies miss your old style hornady roundnoses

I have a .458 Winchester that when given a load that it likes, is capable of spectacular accuracy. 500 grain lead core bullets move around to a small degree with load changes. With 500 grain mono metal bullets with any load ( and there have been many) the point of impact drops a good foot at 100 paces with the mono metal bullets. This same thing happens with 250 grain mono metal bullets out my .338 Winchester. My most reliable and trusted firearm.

With 450 grain Barnes mono metal solids I can hit the same point of impact that I am doing with the 500 grain lead core bullets. Success. But with the 450 grain TSX bullets accuracy is grim and not worth the considerable efforts expended. YMMV.

Still wish someone would make the old Speer tungsten core solid with a nice nose profile and driving bands.
Sort and stubby, easy on barrels, with a nice mass.
Less likely to bend with the short length and not take up the powder space of the heavy mono metals. Would be a dream solid for the 458WM and possibly the Lott.
Might be a pricey bullet.....

Michael has proven the classic grain weight is heavy for CEB BBW 13's
and the like. Seems you can use sectional density of .280 and at times
less with these newer bullets; and get all the penetration you need;
instead of SD .300 - .340 as with round nose, non-driving band designs...