Calling on you African experts.

When I go to Africa in 2 - 3 years time for PG and Buffalo, I will be taking 2 rifles, a 7mm Magnum for smaller plains game species, and a bigger calibre for larger PG & Buffalo

Question:
I have narrowed my choice down to the following 2 calibres. Which is the better choice? I will add that recoil is not an issue and will of course practice plenty. I have shot the .375 before in a relatively light rifle with max loads and thought the recoil very manageable.

Choices:
.375 H&H
.416 Remington Magnum

 

I voted 375 H&H as I am classic caliber man. If you had an option for a 404 Jeffery, that would have got my vote. Nothing wrong with the 416 rem either.

What do you plan with the rifle after you finish with hunt? That does come into the equation before making a decision.

I have a 9.3X62 which is adequate for buffalo though not ideal. But then the PH will have the stopping rifle for back up. But if I can pull it off, I want to build a 404 Jeffery.

BTW Graem Champion of Hawera has a 9.3X62 Hasqvarna for $850 on trademe.

Good luck.

Yeah, not forgetting the .404 as well.

However I would still use it here in NZ- those big tough South Island goats and the like.

Do you have anything against the 9.3X62? You will probably use that a lot more on deer & it is not too far below a 375 H&H.

Good luck.

I had considered the 9.3 x 64 at one stage. Nothing against the 9.3 x 62, just doesn't really do it for me.

I voted for the 416 but prefer the Rigby over the Rem.

By the way, there is NO such thing as one African hunt. But you will figure that out on your own in time!

Have a good hunt and enjoy yourself.

Listen to Todd! Every time I hear some hunter say something like "I've got to go to Africa just once to get it out of my system" I shake my head. Another soul lost. The only thing going to Africa does is make you want to go to Africa again.

And for buffalo, take the .416.

quote:

Listen to Todd! Every time I hear some hunter say something like "I've got to go to Africa just once to get it out of my system" I shake my head. Another soul lost. The only thing going to Africa does is make you want to go to Africa again.

Yep, I agree 100%. I was there back in 2000 and always vowed to go back (Hunting this time)

Once you go, you ALWAYS want to go back, once Africa is in your blood.

Michael

I voted for .375, as you will only hunt buff once.

A .375 is easier to carry, easier to shoot, and easier to sell.

George

I voted .416.
Truth is your 7mm will take care of everything in the world short of African dangerous game. Why get a marginal DG caliber you may never use again vs. a more authoritative one you may never use again?
Of course that is until you go back ...

I would advise you on your 2 calibers.The 7 Rem Mag shoots fast,too fast for Africa , other 7mm such as the 7mm mauser with round nosed bullets at more reasonable African speeds, are more practical with less recoil and less muzzle blast noise.As for your choice of the .416 , I would go with the Rigby for the fact that in the hot African sun...it will not give you extraction problems, which the .416 Rem is notorious for.Extraction pressure problems are not what you want to deal with in a tight situation,...PH or no PH in....I have seen blades of grass deflect fast calibers over 2900, 2800 fps at the shooting range.Also choose your bullets carefully, round nose bullets do better.....

The 416 Rem is fine for Africa. Maybe a long time ago there was somebody who had pressure issues with the Remington. It is mostly a myth, kind of like 458 Win bullets bouncing off elephants.

I have a buddy who had pressure problems with factory loaded 375 H&H in Tanzania, so it can happen with any round.

Just curious what is Africa speed? I like heavy for caliber with softs at recommended velocities and the 7 mag would be fine in Africa.

My vote is the 416 Rem. More authority than the 375 and recoil is very manageable. Killed my first two buffalo with one.

.375 - good enough for buff, usable on all the plains game with appropriate bullets and usable back in the states for bear or pig busting etc

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I voted .416.
Truth is your 7mm will take care of everything in the world short of African dangerous game. Why get a marginal DG caliber you may never use again vs. a more authoritative one you may never use again?
Of course that is until you go back ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
.375 - good enough for buff, usable on all the plains game with appropriate bullets and usable back in the states for bear or pig busting etc

The same can be said for the 416's especially with the 350 gr bullets shooting faster than a 300 gr 375 H&H. I took my first Brown Bear with the 416 Rigby in 05 and I hunted pigs yesterday with the same 416 Rigby.

Babaode, I'm also curious about the Africa speed thing and the 7mm. Haven't hunted Africa with my 7mm Mag but have hunted Africa with my 340 WBY and 300 H&H. Both are faster than the 7mm Mag with properly matched bullets (opinion here - 160 gr 7mm, 180 gr 300 H&H, 225 gr 340 Wby). Used TSX on all. All have resulted in devastating one shot kills unless I misplaced the shot. None have resulted in any type of problems whatsoever. If I'm going to shoot a 416, I'm certainly not concerned about recoil from a 7mm Mag vs 7X57. Same can be said about the muzzle blast. What does that mean, "Too fast for Africa". Does Africa exists in some type of time warp dimension where bullet's perform differently and 100 F is hotter than 100 F in other places. Sorry to bring in the temp issue but so many folks ascribe qualities to the continent that just don't make sense. The laws of physics apply in Africa as well as any other place on Earth!

Kiwi,
The caliber choice is up to you. If you reload, which I am assuming from your handle that you do, the 375 with 350gr Woodleighs will do anything a 416 will do and you can load it with 235gr and go shoot varmints. The buff are not going to know the difference.
For the 7mm load premium heavy bullets and you have a great combo.

Put me in the 375 H&H club. The 416 is wonderful, but the 375 is fine for buffalo. If this is, indeed, a one time hunt than you will find that the 375 is a better long term choice. It excels at plains game thus you will use it anywhere you go. The difference in recoil is significant enough that, for most of us, unless we are hunting dangerous game the 416 will stay in the safe. You will get a lifetime of use out of the 375 but not the 416.
Full disclosure: I used a 375H&H for my first buffalo, a 404J for my second and haven't decided if I will use the 404J, a 416, or a 458WM on my third in May. My 375H&H will be my back up/plains game rifle.

Interesting voting as it's nearly tied.....

I voted .375 H&H because there's no such thing as "deader"

The 375 and leave the 7mm at home.

I voted for the .416 Rem. I would prefer a .404 Jeff, and the .375 H&H will work fine almost all the time.

I agree with Vapo that there is no such thing as "deader", but I also feel there is no such thing as "too dead".

There are just times and angles when I would feel better slinging 400 grain rocks than 300 grain ones.

And if recoil isn't a problem, as the OP stated, then there is no reason he couldn't use it just as much at home as he would a .375 is there?

Kiwiwildcat,

The 416 Rem is a great round but I'm a 375 fan from way back and given that you will be using the rifle in NZ also I think the 375 is a better choice. The 375 with 300 gr bullets gets it done on buffalo and with 260-270 grainers it will work very well in NZ out to 300 yards and a little bit.

Your choice of the 7 Mag as a PG rifle is fine but as previously suggested the 375 particuylarly in southern Africa will get it all done.

Mark

Take the .375 H&h. You'll probably shoot the .375 a little better than the .416 Rem and the only real difference is the buff will run off and die just a few feet less with the .416 Rem. all else being equal.
Use solids in your .375 for the little antelopes and any Baboons you run into. -Rob

On the last two safaris, the 416 Rem Mag has been the only rifle I've carried. Wonderful performance on Buffalo (albeit my only experience on Buffalo), and handled the PG just fine. 400 grain Swift A-Frames @ 2375fps. Love it!

I voted for the 416 Rem, but my actual choice would be a 404 Jeffery. I own a 375, 404 and 458 Lott. The 404 seems to me to kick about like the 375; the 458 is just punishment.

Ideal African speed for optimal penetration is in the 2,200fps to 2,500fps range.I shoot and love to shoot my .338 Lapua and even have a brain shot 14'1" Problem crocodile brain shot from 404 yds with this fast shooting round.Talking about ideal African speeds,bullets of different ogive,I have had a Swift A frame .416 Rigby at 2400fps glace of a twig at an unbelievable Kudu (>58") in 2004 from 40 yards on the Bubye River in the Zimbabawe Low veld, and have had a .338 Lapua Nosler partition at 2,800+fps glance of a twig at an Eland shot from about 80 yds.On the other side of the coin,I have had to follow a huge bodied Elephant shot from about 25 yds with a BBS 500 grain Solid from a WR.470NE DR that got up in the thick stuff and staggered away.When we later chronographed the rest of the batch,the Solids were doing 1900fps to 1890fps and the Soft Points were doing 50fps less.The logical deduction was that the long BBS .470 Cal,500 grains were too slow to stabilize,consequently they must have "key holed" and failed to penetrate to the brain on a frontal shot from 25yds.
I do control work on dangerous Forest Buffalo destroying Cocoa pods and trees as well as smart Plantain (Large Banana) raiding Old Male Elephant without a PH Back up,I use 2 rifles, one is a .500 Jeffery loaded with BBS 570 grain and Woodleigh SP 570 grain with mv of 2295fps to 2240fps respectively,the old poacher with me (100's of Elephant's to his credit) uses an old.404 jeffery by Dumolin with 400 grain solids.My tracker carries my .416 Rigby with BBS and Woodleigh Round nose soft points both 400grains handloaded to 2400fps to 2350fps respectively as my 2nd Rifle....Every Elephant I have shot through twigs with a .416 Rigby BBS 400 grain at 2400fps mv, has dropped within 30 to 120 yards on heart shots.The ideal spot is right among the Great Vessels at the top of the heart,where the BBS does unbelievable damage with its sharp ridges setting up a tissue grinding shock wave behind the straight line penetrating flat meplat of this most devastating bullet.To sum it up, there are few hard and fast rules about African Hunting,However,Round nosed bullets are less likely to deflect than bullets with a sharp ogive,BBS and other flat nosed bullets seem to penetrate best and are less likely to deviate on dangerous game especially when Head Shots at elephants must be taken into consideration as a likely "save your bacon" possibility,provided the velocity rule is adhered to.Bullets fron 2200fps to 2,500fps, penetrate and stay stable.Ilove my .338 Lapua for its accuracy long range capability...a 404yd brain shot on a Crocodile is unbelievable but was done, but for practical purposes stick with the classics, round nose bullets at 2200 to 2500 fps and if you use a DR make sure it is shooting those Round nose solids and soft points at 2150 fps.By the way,If I had to go to Africa with one Rifle, if would be a .416 Rigby......as Pondoro said 80+ years ago, "..It is the the ideal African Rifle...you cannot get a better Rifle..",For a 2 rifle battery using a 7mm for plains game , I would avoid fast bullets over 2700fps upwards....just my 2c from an african hunter crazy enough to hunt without a PH in West Africa...Hope you find this useful.By the way Chap...you dont go on 1 hunt to africa...those flies bite africa into you...you will go back..7mm Mauser and .416 Rigby, you dont want to deal with the .416 Rem and 120 degree heat induced extraction problems...."Chikena..., hope you understand".

You can't go wrong with either one, but you might get more usage out of the 375.

Kiwiwildcat, I vote the .375 H&H because of the noticeable less recoil in the "same weight" rifle. Some of the guys on this forum are highly experienced with much larger guns. I'm not and shoot a 376 steyr(a downsized .375) because it's really all I am comfortable with. Shoot what you shoot well.

Dont let anyone kid you that you wont use a 404 jeffery here in NZ. They are a heck of a lot of fun on a mob of goats. I was out this weekend and the owner of the station had a wounded 2 year old bull runing with its dam on the high ground of few thou acres. Someone had tried a headshot with a 222 on the bull and couldn't understand why it ran off as he shoots deer with his 222. Go figure huh. I had my 404 Jeffery and was dead keen to find the bull but the weather came in and we had to get off the hill before it became snowed in. There are wild cattle on the west coast and a big winter wet wapiti to think of. Aaaaaaaand dont you think that you might get back to Africa again so a 404 Jeffery makes just plain good sense.



Von Gruff.

Von Gruff,I like your .404 jeffery and 7mm x 57 mauser COMBINATION.....i would take the .416 Rigby over the .404...After you listen to Gun Range buffs some bent on selling you hopes, and after you have tracked a few blood spots due to not listening to real African Gun Hands, you will get the message..416 Rigby and 7 mm x 57 Mauser, you cannot go wrong...My final imput on this question.....from a real African Gun Hand......BABAODE.

If you know the .375H&H take one (and Woodleighs of course). Even more practise with it will only make your chances of success better.

quote:

Originally posted by babaode:
After you listen to Gun Range buffs some bent on selling you hopes, and after you have tracked a few blood spots due to not listening to real African Gun Hands, you will get the message..416 Rigby and 7 mm x 57 Mauser, you cannot go wrong...My final imput on this question.....from a real African Gun Hand......BABAODE.

babaode,

Please continue posting as your opinion is obviously the only that matters, maybe us gun range buffs (who spend considerable time shooting, testing, practicing, killing DG and PG in Africa, hunting in the states, and never having had a PH back us up) could learn something from the "real African gun"

The 416 took an early lead and the 375 has pulled ahead. Truthfully, for buffalo and plainsgame, there is not much that one will do that the other cannot.

Still like the 416 Rem though.

Keep the thread going guys, this is great and many thanks for all of you opinions.

I'm kinda headed towards the 416. GS Custom do 245gr and 330 gr HV's in 416 and this for me makes the 416 very enticing.

I voted 416.

I guess I better go back and tell that Kude, Eland, Bushbuck, Zebra, and Blue Wildebeast that I am sorry fo rkilling them with too fast a bullet and assure them that next time i come to kill thier kin I wont be using an 8x68S at 2950fps but assure them that I will shoot all thierr kin in teh future with somethign at appropriate "african" speeds.

quote:

Originally posted by kiwiwildcat:
Keep the thread going guys, this is great and many thanks for all of you opinions.

I'm kinda headed towards the 416. GS Custom do 245gr and 330 gr HV's in 416 and this for me makes the 416 very enticing.

IMHO stock fit including LOP are more important in recoil management than the difference between a 375 and 416-so go with what feels best-

SSR

You are making a wise decision to choose what bullet to use and then matching a caliber and rifle to deliver it. It all boils down to how the bullet performs and not whether it came from a $20k custom or an off the shelf rifle. Obviously choose one that feeds and functions perfectly and you are good to go.

I hate to throw in more calibers but have you considered the 416 and 375 Ruger? I realize they are limited to a few factory rifles but they have fantastic ballistics and with the 375 and 350 grain bullets it compares favorably with the 416 calibers. I chose an M70 in 416 Remington and love the gun and caliber but I would like to add a 375 Ruger also. Using Barnes TSX 300's for PG and 400 solids for DG in 416 caliber would seem to cover everything for a 1 gun battery IMO and that's why I settled on the 416 Remington. In the end I plan on having guns in as many calibers as I can get without my wife divorcing me. Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by kiwiwildcat:
Keep the thread going guys, this is great and many thanks for all of you opinions.

I'm kinda headed towards the 416. GS Custom do 245gr and 330 gr HV's in 416 and this for me makes the 416 very enticing.

I didn't vote because I handload everything and the 416Rigby just takes things up a whole level when handloaded.

Glad to hear that you have access to 330 GSC HV's. That is a better allaround choice in my opinion than the heavy-for-calibre-lead core, e.g., 450 grain Woodleigh. The GSC are hard to get in the US so I haven't used them. The monometal substitute is the Barnes .416" 350 grain TSX (.350 BC) and now a .416 350 TTSX (.444 BC). I've only used the TSX in Africa and the TTSX must await my next visit to the US. The TSX is utterly reliable, devasting, and practical for any African range out to 400 yards. That is the Rigby advantage. There shouldn't be any heat problems, even if walking around in 100F (38C). (The Rigby case is huge and could probably handle 2900fps, cf. 416Weatherby, but I don't go there.)

With the .416 330 GSC you will be able to expect 2800-2900 fps for a flat-shooting buffalo-capable load. There is no reason to limit the 416 to published Rigby loads based on 1910 irregularities if you are using a current generation rifle with modern brass. (Norma, Hornady, Jamison are all good.) I would practice and plan on 'everything' with this load, and some Barnes FLATnose solids in 350grain or the GSC 370 grain. Cutting Edge also has a great 350 grain flatnose solid, though they may be harder to get in NewZealand.

If you must do the above in 416 Rem. then drop 150-200fps off the ballistics.

As for bullet deflection, I have had a 'keyhole' from grass (or thin black stick?) and TSX hollowpoints (reasonably flat on the tip), but I would not trust a roundnose to save the day, and you surely don't want it to start to open up. The only sure method is to shoot around ANY obstruction. If you must shoot through something, then I would cycle out the expanding bullet and use a flatnose solid from the magazine. (And yes the .416 solid is better than the .375, but the .458 and .500 would be better still when talking solids.)

The hunt is exciting; so is the preparation, as this forum shows.

I voted .416, because I will always go bigger, especially for Cape buffalo, if given a sane choice in the matter.

But my PG rifle has become the .375 H&H Mag., after a bit of dabbling with lesser calibers.

Mostly because there's really nothing the .375 can't handle in the right hands.

And one never knows what will be around the next corner.

Tanzan,

My best friend is the New Zealand and Australian distributor for the GS Custom projectiles, so they are easy for me to obtain, plus I get them at cost price. I have used the .270, .284 and .308 HV's and I don't shoot any other projectile in my rifles. Performance has been out of this world. I am soon to be loading the 116gr HV's in my new Kimber 7mm WSM.

Its a real shame you can't get the GS Custom's very easily in the US. They are starting to get some notice down here - I wrote an article for one of the main gun mags here in NZ.

The 330gr look to be a good bet for all around use. I hadn't actually considered them on Buffalo, I was thinking along the linesof a 400gr. But then I hadn't got that far in asking the best weight bullet in softs for Buffalo.

I have voted for the 416 Remington, as I consider the 375 as an excellent cartridge but I do not see suitable for buffalo and other dangerous wildlife that requires a stronger cartridge.

Oscar.