What brass do you use for reloading? I found that SSK Industries makes 450 Nitro 3.25 barrels for the TC Encore, which I have. So, I think I found my Xmas present.

Also, should I go with a muzzle brake because of the Encore's weight?

And this will be a 24 to 26 inch barrel, not a shorty...

Don't get in too big of a hurry to buy 450 NE brass just yet.

If you'll wait another month or two it will be well worth your wait.

JohnnyReb:

I use Jamison....but follow new guy's advice....especially since he "winked".

Gary
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Hornady?

Federal?

You guys are logical enough to figure it out. Based on the current prices for 470 ammo, it will make the 450 NE a very attractive alternative!

That was good news for my Ruger nr 1 in .450 NE 3.25 inch , that soon will have an Leupold 1,5-5x20 on top of it.

Any idea of what the price on brass will be btw?

OK, I'll wait on the brass. I see 20 pieces from Huntington's is $53.

Should I go with a muzzle brake or not? I am leaning towards one since my Encore is no heavyweight...

I always wondered why the .450NE has played second fiddle to the .470 for so long...

I know because of the .450 ban many vintage doubles were made .470, but why did the trend continue with the new doubles?

With the .458 winmag/.460wby - .450 bullets are avaliable in a wider and cheaper variety than the .470. How come new double rifle makers (and buyers) never took to the origional .450??

Maybe a case of fashion before common sense?

.

One of the reasons I want a 450 Nitro is so I could use the cheaper bullets intended for the 45/70 for practice and deer hunting...

Wes - the 470 was one of the last runs and the largest runs of ammunition before production was ceased. So there was literally more of it in circulation.

When Jim Bell started loading for the big nitros, the 470 was the first one to market. With a source of ammo available again, rifle makers followed suit with new rifles.

My assumption is that Kynoch and Bell (and eventually Federal) deemed the 470 to be more popular and represent a larger % of the market. I would imagine their foremost concern was profit for their efforts.

Until now, the 450 was really no different than the 500-465, 475 #2, 450 #2, etc... Which is to say that there were only two sources for ammunition for the cartridge and neither one of them were made in the US.

Just like the 470 being made by a US maker(s) solidified it as a valid option, so too will the availability of the 450 by the same solidify its future.

It's all good.

IMO, which means nothing to anyone but me, the 450NE 3.25" is a far more sensable cartridge than the 470NE, and will do anything the 470NE will, cheaper!

many of the old double rifles that were 450NE 3.25 " to start with, were re-bored at the factories, to .485" grouve, and chambered for the 470NE cartridge. This was because this dia was the closest to the .450 bore that new barrels did not have to be made, just re-regulated to the new cartridge. This is the reason the older 450NE doubles are hard to find today. I have, and hunt with a 470NE double rifle, but i would far rather have a well made 450NE 3.25" double in the 10.5 lb range. Since a double rifle requires handloading to get the best from it, the 450NE just makes sense! It is cheaper to load, will do anything one needs a double for, and has a great choice of cheap well made bullets! The 450NE is the cartridge all others was judged by, in the DG fields!

The suspense is killing me on who the surprise brass maker is.

All the better reasons now to go ahead and rechamber that .458 WinMag or .458 Lott Ruger No.1 to 450 Nitro Express 3.25" Thin Rim. Mine is stainless, laminate, laser and flashlight equipped with 4-MOA red dot for fast shooting ... I am practicing reloading from a six-round cartridge carrier on the buttstock and a 3-round carrier on my wrist ... time trials against a double rifle TBA.

quote:

Originally posted by Wes Pryor:
I always wondered why the .450NE has played second fiddle to the .470 for so long...

I know because of the .450 ban many vintage doubles were made .470, but why did the trend continue with the new doubles?

With the .458 winmag/.460wby - .450 bullets are avaliable in a wider and cheaper variety than the .470. How come new double rifle makers (and buyers) never took to the origional .450??

Maybe a case of fashion before common sense?

.

Pretty close. It's due to happenstance and a succession of misconceptions.

The .470 was developed in 1899, was not retained as a proprietary cartridge, and was a signal commercial failure. The .450s and .450/400s were the rage of the day and, if something larger were desired, the .500 and .577 Nitros were already available. The .470 just didn't fit in, and nobody wanted it. It did so well that neither Eley nor Kynoch picked it up in their catalogues.

Then, events in India - the 900 pound gorilla of British rifle markets - interceded. The .303, .577/.450 Martini Henry, and the .577 Snider, the calibers of the three British military rifles then stockpiled in India, were banned by an order issued by the Governor in Council for the Bombay Presidency in March, 1899. This order did not apply to any other cartridges. The .450s were never banned in India, but the perception was all that mattered. In some districts, the order was incorrectly construed to mean all .303, .450, and .577 bore rifles. This misconception had no immediate effect, but the interpretation did spread over time. By 1906, the resulting enforcement errors had caused stockpiles of sporting .450 ammunition in India to deplete and neither the trade nor the government were ever able to get in front of the problem. The only way to cut the Gordian knot was a new slate of replacement cartridges for the .450s, as had been done for the .303.

By the time the 4 new .475 group cartridges (.500/.465, .475 NE, .475 No. 2 Eley, and the .475 No. 2 Jeffery, followed later by the .476 Westley Richards) had been drawn up in early 1907, every one had been retained as a proprietary cartridge. The remaining gunmakers were left standing behind the door. They either had to pay a fee to use a proprietary cartridge, develop their own, or were stuck with the only existing cartridge in that size range that wasn't proprietary - the .470. It wasn't picked up by so many because it was the the best of the lot, or because it had been so well received (it had flopped), but because it was free.

The problem in the Indian market didn't become moot until partition/indepedence, which was the same event that reduced the double rifle trade to a tiny trickle. After that, what new_guy said above is mostly right. Kynoch did make huge runs of the more popular flanged nitros in the late 60s and early 70s in anticipation of shutting down. However, .450 was loaded just as late as .470 was, but the misconception that the .470 was the only one available persisted. To what new_guy said, I'll also add that the most widely read writers of post-war African classics, Hemingway, Ruark, and Capstick (PHC also incorrectly stated that usable stocks of Kynoch ammo were only available in .470), all mentioned using .470s, which didn't hurt that cartridge any.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

So, does anyone have an opinion on whether or not a 450 Nitro barrel for a TC Encore needs a muzzle brake? Or maybe a mag-na-port job instead of a brake? SSK will do either...

What's the weight of the Encore? If it's too light, you may want one. If it's say 10# or better, maybe good with just a recoil pad. My 450 NE double will get your attention, but it's not unbearable.....and when I fired my 470 at game, I didn't even notice it. But sighting her in.....another matter. I just don't like muzzle breaks...but sometimes they're the only way to go.
I would imagine JD could put the brake on anytime....try it w/o first.

Gary
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Well, my Encore weighs about 8 pounds with a 209x45 muzzleloader barrel and no scope, so I would think that the 450 Nitro barrel with the same contour would be about the same. I would definitely start off with reloads at the top end of 45/70 loads before I went with full Nitro loads. And the more I think about it, a mag-na-port job would be much more aesthetically pleasing than a brake. I have to call SSK to place the order anyway, so I'll ask what most people get...

Johnreb, I can assure you that an 8# 450 NE with proper 480 gr bullets at 2100-2150 fps will get your attention...in a hurry. I might suggest you go ahead and get that magnaport from the start...and you're right...iron sights would not be right with JD's SSK arrestor.
You can load any number of 350-400 gr lead or jacketed bullets for practice at reduced loads...using the right powder (5744) or fillers. This will help get used to it.

Good luck.

Gary
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GarBy, thanks for the reply. I want to do a "peep and post" with this 450 barrel, so I guess that "mag-na-port" it is. I will definitely use reduced loads to start with. If you have any suggested starting loads, please PM me with them, as I have yet to go beyond the barrel/dies/shellholder/brass stage for the 450 Nitro. I have seen the full on loads with the 480 Woodleigh, but I definitely want to start with less...

Reduced loads is a joke, you can't learn to handle the recoil with reduced loads, you have probably been shooting a 30-06 or something all your life and still worrying about the recoil??

The way to learn to handle recoil is shoot a 500 N.E., 505 or something like that for awhile, then shoot your 450-3.25, the 450 will feel like a maidens caress at that point..worked for me!

Johnreb:

I recieved some reduced loads from Accurate Arms folks using 5744 powder. I had some for my 470 and they worked great for practice and just some fun shooting. I'll scan and forward to you....but don't be shy about reminding me....I'm working about the state lately and have been hit or miss. I'll try to remember!!

P.S. Mr. Atkinson is right...mostly...but it never hurts to play with some reduced loads.

Gary
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Well, I do intend to deer hunt with the thing, so loads in the neighborhood of the 45/70 would be more appropriate for that. No need to waste a 480 grain Woodleigh on a Eastern whitetail deer...