I have a chance to pick up a .458 win mag, new model 70. I am not a big fan of the caliber and am wondering if the gun can be turned/altered into something else (.458 Lott or something else) ? I am no gunsmith but am curious. THe price is such that I can afford to put $500 into the gun if I chose to.

The 458 LOTT is a natural for this rifle!

Macd37,
Are there other calibers as well that this could be turned into? And, can you do the same thing with a .375 H&H?
THanks

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Macd37,
Are there other calibers as well that this could be turned into? And, can you do the same thing with a .375 H&H?
THanks

If you want to simply re-chamber, then you are limited to the bore size already in the barrel. In the case of the .375 H&H. it is a full length cartridge, so to rechamber to something else you must go "FATTER"! You can go to the 375 H&H Ackley improved, or the 375 Weatherby, and simply fireform brass by fireing factory 375 H&H ammo in the new chamber, and load with a set of wildcat dies. There are some .458 wildcats that can be done on the mod 70 as well, but require a lot more work. If you want to re-barrel, then you can go to anything that will fit in a mod 70 action.

Personally I see absolutely nothing being gained by hot-rodding the .375 H&H, it is about perfect the way it is! The .458 Win Mag, however, is a place where improvement is a plus, and IMO, there is no better re-chamber for it than the 458 LOTT! The 458 LOTT is what Winchester should have done when they came out with the 458 Win Mag. It is now a factory loaded round, and I would say it is fast becoming the go-to cartridge for PHs in Africa, where dangerous game is on the minue, and he can't afford a double rifle! Also, in a pinch, the 458 Win Mag ammo can be used in a Lott chamber, if ammo is lost, and 458 WM is all that is available.

I just went through a similar exercise. I found a rifle I really liked but it was chambered in a 458 Win Mag. Took me weeks to talk myself into the rifle and the 458 really was the big show stopper in my head. Anyway here is a pic:



Anyway I went through the same thoughts what can I rechamber it to? The Lott was a natural. Anyway I got doing some homework, and exploring handloading ammo in the 458 Win Mag. I doubt I will fiddle with rechambering or barreling at this point. I think with 350 gr "X" bullets, and 400 Swifts this will do pretty much what I want. If I decide to go to Africa and need a bigger rifle I will sell this and trade up.

The 458 with a 350 gr bullet is moving along at 2550 FPS, I haven't shot them yet but I think I am going to like that load.

I have a Win Model 70 Safari Express in 458 Win Mag. Just bought it new a few months ago. I have also been planning on doing a revamp on it including the Lott upgrade.

About how much am I looking at after all is said and done. I am also going to get it glass bedded. This will be a DG rifle first and foremost. What else would you guys suggest being done while it is at the gunsmith to make it a very capable DG rifle?

Roger that! There's no flies on the 458 Win Mag today! The Lott is better by a usable margin but I would play with the Win Mag for a while before I decided to move up to 458 Lott.

Especially in Oklahoma. Or Texas for that matter. Until we get far enough east to shoot really big game any difference between the Win Mag and Lott is just playing around (not that I have anything against that).

Ok, I am convinced. I will leave the .375H&H as is. I agree, it is a great round.

On the .458 Win Mag, the .458 Lott seems to be a good one as well. What about the .404 Jeffery or the new .404 Cheyenne the military is using in some new sniper rifles?

Schromf
Nice looking rifle, very nice. I would not change a thing. The 458 in current modern loadings is all you need for any game in Africa.
With 350 grain bullets from 2000 to 2350 fps is a good deer, pig, black bear load. For elk, moose and big bears a 400 to 450 grain premium load will work great. I have used the 350 gr Hornady RN with great effect.
I have killed a lot of game with .458 rifles over the years, 45/70 to my 450 No2. It is my favorite big bore calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Schromf
Nice looking rifle, very nice. I would not change a thing. The 458 in current modern loadings is all you need for any game in Africa.
With 350 grain bullets from 2000 to 2350 fps is a good deer, pig, black bear load. For elk, moose and big bears a 400 to 450 grain premium load will work great. I have used the 350 gr Hornady RN with great effect.
I have killed a lot of game with .458 rifles over the years, 45/70 to my 450 No2. It is my favorite big bore calibre.

Thanks,

I won't have it until after the first of the year, like I said I really liked the rifle, and I finally talked myself into it. What blows me away is I never figured 458 Win Mag brass was hard to find. I finally found some and got it on order but it is one of those run once a year calibers for Winchester, and most places either didn't have it or it was way over priced. Lucky I had packratted 2 boxes away years ago, and it gave me something to get started.

quote:

404 Jeffery

Its my understanding that this is pretty straight forword. RIP has one he built up and I would pick his brain on this subject. I think he started with a action set up for the Ultra Mag though.

dogcat,
Yep, as schromf says, the .404 Jeffery is a shoo-in on the Win.M70 Classic with RUM magazine box, follower and spring. Fredj338 has the pretty walnut and blue one so built. I have the homely stainless and fiberglass one, Ye Olde African Sheep Rifle.

Also remember the .404 Jeffery uses .423 caliber bullets.

That is a .408 Cheyenne Tactical (not a .404 Chey, as you mentioned) and it has .408 caliber bullets and a .505 Gibbs based case: Never to be a consideration in a Win.M70 at all.

Anyone with a .458 Win Mag in the CZ 550 does not need a Lott at all. You can long seat the 500 grain Barnes TSX and crimp it out to almost 3.85" COL in the CZ, and beat standard .458 Lott factory ballistics with the .458 Win Mag.

The standard .458 Win Mag throat is long and sloppy funnel with more than an inch of bullet run before the lands engage the bullet.

Any .458 Win Mag can thus be fed handloads of 3.850" COL that are stouter than the .458 Lott at 3.600" COL.

RIP

I hadn't thought about the 458WM with the long mono metal bullets in a long action. Now you have my head spinning as I personal see no real practical advantage in screwing around with a pefectly good 458WM but your idea sounds like a conversoion without a conversion. Lovely! Have you actually shot the 458WM with the 500GR TSX in a 550?

Dogcat,

have you actually ever hunted with a 458WM? I honestly think if you do even with modern factory loads you won't see a big need to alter your rifle. A 500 gr. premium bullet at 2000 fps just hits big animals very hard.

THX

Mark

I second what Adam said. In addition, if you reload, obtaining 2100-2150 fps in the .458 WM is no real trick. I promise you, if you place the bullet correctly, no elephant, buffalo, rhino, or hippo will know the difference between a .458" 500 gr. bullet traveling at 2100 fps. and 2250 fps. Either of these is going to shake 'em up pretty bad. As always, bullet placement is key.

Geronimo

Geronimo

Sorry Mark, I meant to second your quote and was looking at your advert.

Geronimo

Mark Young and Geronomo,
I have never fired a .458 Win Mag. I have used the .375 H&H on my trip to Zim last year with great success and results. I have a .416 Rem Mag but have not hunted with it.

The issue on the .458 was that I was offered one at a very reasonable price. I read on AR that the .458 Win Mag was not the cartridge that the .458 Lott or others are and thought - "I will see what this can be turned into" - without any practical knowledge of the process or options. With the comments from Rip and yourselves, I may fool around with the .458 as it is.

I have no "need" for a .458 Win Mag. The .375 H&H and the .416 Rm Mag can do all I need, just was having fun thinking about the .458 and the 500 gr bullets.

I am an engineer and enjoy the planning of a trip or a project as much as going. The ideas with the .458 win mag are for fun.

RIP- also, thanks for sorting me on the .408 Cheyenne Tactical. An acquaintance was telling me about the accuracy and power of that new round.

Again, I appreciate the comments and ideas. I am learning a lot and having fun with this.

Any other comments are most appreciated.

Read some other threads on the Gunsmithing column. To convert a standard length mag M70 action to full length requires you to change out the magazine follower and I think the ejector and the bolt stop also has to be modified. Then you also need to change out the magazine or remove the spacer in the present one. Then some machining of the action needs to be accomplished to permit you to eject a loaded round. One of the scope mounting holes will then need to be redrilled and tapped.

Snowwolfe. I just did this a couple of years ago on a Win model 70. The only thing the gunsmith had to do was run the reamer and change the feed rails a bit. IIRC I don't think he had to do any magazine mods.

Geronimo

Glad it worked for you. People keep on telling me it shouldnt be done. Just buy the length you need and go from there. But how can you eject loaded rounds the same length as the 375 without even altering the bolt stop? And every W70 medium length action I have seen has the "filler" inside the magazine. You didnt even have to remove this?

Snowwolfe, to be honest I don't know if I had a little mag filler in there or not. But the gunsmith didn't think the job was any big deal. I think I paid about $100 for the whole job. The gun has worked fine since then.

Geronimo

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
RIP

I hadn't thought about the 458WM with the long mono metal bullets in a long action. Now you have my head spinning as I personal see no real practical advantage in screwing around with a pefectly good 458WM but your idea sounds like a conversoion without a conversion. Lovely! Have you actually shot the 458WM with the 500GR TSX in a 550?

Mark

Mark,
Back in the 1980's I copied Finn Aagaard's experiments with the .458 WinMag. I loaded the Hornady 500 grain RNSP out to .375 H&H length in the .458 WinMag using IMR4320. I did indeed get 2250 fps with 500 grainers this way, with no pressure signs whatsoever.

I have loaded up dummies using the .458/500gr Barnes TSX in the .458 WinMag.

If you crimp on the 4th cannelure you get a load that is just under 3.7" COL, with plenty of the bullet base still in the case. If you crimp on the fifth cannelure it is just under 3.8" COL for the .458 WinMag, and less than a caliber of shank in the case, the only limiting factor here.

Of course you could load the .458 Lott long like this and have plenty of bullet in the case for case grip at 3.8" COL.

These .458 WinMag Long Nose (.458 WMLN) loads function well in a CZ 550 Magnum box of their standard .458 WinMag.

Since I have so many other toys to play with here at HA!/DOA, I just haven't gone back to this rather mundane conversion without a conversion.

It is guaranteed to work, to equal AND exceed .458 Lott velocity (limited to 3.600" COL) in a .458 WinMag with a longer box.

This works because the standard .458 WinMag throat is a long and wide leade, no parallel sided freebore, just sloppy wide leade from case mouth to where it narrows down to bore over an inch out from the case mouth.

These .458 WMLN loads might even make the .458 WM more accurate by getting the bullet closer to land contact. They'll never get there, but they will be closer.

If I had more time to play, I would chronograph 85 grains of RL-15 with the Barnes .458/500gr TSX in a CZ 550 Magnum chambered simply for .458 WinMag and expect about 2250 FPS, then I would start adding more powder.

To me it is a foregone conclusion.

Finn Aagaard showed me the way about 20 years ago.

I went to a gun store in Polokwane in March and they had a .458 Express -I seem to remember that the shell was 3 inches in length. Bit more potent than the Lott!

I guess somebody needs one as the store holder said he´d sold a few.

You might want to read a few of jeffeossos posts on the 458AR. His testing is yielding some very healthy figures without too very much trouble.
Frank

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
.458 Express -I seem to remember that the shell was 3 inches in length. Bit more potent than the Lott!

cewe, the 458 Epress was develooped in South Africa. As I understand it, they had to use a 3" case to equal the Lott's performance with their pwoders. If they had better powders, they would not have needed the 3" case.

Hog Killer

Hog Killer: Thanks for the info, sort of wondering why I haven´t seen any news on this chambering. I think the gun was a CZ but I might be wrong.

Not that I want one -I´ve drawn my line at .416!

Happy New Year

Don't forget the 458 Vincent Short, listed in the LOADS section of this web site. The latest trick with the Vincent is to use RUM brass instead of the 404, since it fits the bolt face of the 458 winnie exactly. The rechambering is simple and remonves very little metal. It will easily propel 500 grainers at well over 2400 fps.

Certainly the .458 "Express" 3" makes no sense in a 3.85" box bolt action if you can use the TSX and the right powder. No gain whatsoever is possible over the 2.8" Lott, or indeed even over the 2.5" WinMag if you can live with the Long-Nose-Short-Seat configuration, given that the common throatings allow this just fine.

Any idea what reloading dies cost for the 458 Vincent short?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Any idea what reloading dies cost for the 458 Vincent short?

That would be a custom die proposition. It is a pet cartridge of Saeed that he named after Roy Vincent. Very special.

Who does that besides Redding and what do they charge? I thought something near $200 from Redding was incredibly cheap, especially since the .505 Gibbs dies from RCBS were about $350.

I will be needing to get some for the .510 Bibi-Gibbs.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
... In my youth Tom Siatos's 460 G&A was very popular amongst the serious elephant hunters that frequented the Save in old Rhodesia. We had a gunsmith in the small Western Transvaal hamlet of Sannieshof that was in cohoots with Jack Lott and Siatos and sinlgy he was the source of most of the Watts and G&A's of that time.

Thanks, Alf, for the SA history of .45 Wildcats like the Majoor Short and Long.

I am reassured by the SA fondness for the .460 G&A on elephant, as I have named my .458 Lapua the Tembo.

Nothing new here either, except for the addition of TSX bullets and "seating out long nose style" with the right throat.

The .458 Tembo is intermediate between the Majoor Short and long in brass length and case capacity, and closer to the .458 Majoor Long in case capacity, given the "long nose" seating.

With my "Lapua-Big-Five-plus-Grandma-Gibbs" line I can shoot the same-actioned-rifle for everything big and small, near and far.

BTW, the .308 Lapua is marked (barely legible in the photo) 3.798" for COL, just for reference. That one is overbore and can afford to be deep seated and short throated, for the little stuff. Photo below:

Left to right:
.308 Chui
.338 Simba
.375 Nyati
.423 Kifaru
.458 Tembo
.510 Bibi
(free advertizing for HA!/DOA)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Left to right:
.308 Chui
.338 Simba
.375 Nyati
.423 Kifaru
.458 Tembo
.510 Bibi
(free advertizing for HA!/DOA)

PS: The .308 Chui is actually the .300 Lapua Magnum, and it has been around since the 1980's, Lapua makes an occasional run of brass for it with proper headstamp, and it is a CIP standardized cartridge.

Redding carries a listing of the .300 Lapua in their offerings.

Terribly original of me, eh? .308 Chui to .510 Bibi.

Now back to the original concept of making something different out of the .458 WinMag: the Long Nose technique is demonstrated in the pictured .458 Lapua above ...