The Accurate Reloading Forums
Re: Killing power of different calibers
13 November 2004, 06:26
ASS_CLOWNRe: Killing power of different calibers
Neal and Robert,
Any way you guys can post some pictures of the kills you have made? Video clips would be even better!!
ASS_CLOWN
11 November 2004, 12:39
ASS_CLOWNjeffeosso,
Quote:
Just this weekend past I saw, withing hours, the huge difference in effect (yes effect) between the 458 watts with 510 gr sp vs the 458 winmag with 405 gr rems...
the 458 killed pigs, just dead.
the watts "shattered" them, instant kills...
Of course, a pig doesn't offer alot of resistence to a .458 bullet.
I have a few questions if you don't mind:
1.) What are the muzzle velocities of the 458, 405 Win load, and the 458 Watts, 510 load?
2.) Did both the Winnie and the Watts loads penetrate completely through?
3.) You stated the 405 gr bullets used in the Winnie were Remingtons, what make/style were the 510 gr bullets used in the Watts?
4.) How big was the hog shot with the Winnie?
5.) How big was the hog shot with the Watts?
6.) Was the hog shot with the Winnie aware of the hunter, or not?
7.) Was the hog shot with the Watts aware of the hunter, or not?
8.) Where was the point of impact of the Winnie bullet on the hog?
9.) Where was the point of impact of the Watts bullet on the hog?
10.) What was the angle of the hog to the shot with the Winnie?
11.) What was the angle of the hog to the shot with the Watts?
12.) What was the diameter of the jelled/bloodshot meat in the wound channel with the Winnie?
13.) What was the diameter of the jelled/bloodshot meat in the wound channel with the Watts?
14.) What was the range to the hog shot with the Winnie?
15.) What was the range to the hog shot with the Watts?
16.) If bullets were recovered what was the expanded diameter of the Winnie bullet?
17.) If bullets were recovered what was the expanded diameter of the Watts bullet?
18.) If bullets were recovered what was the retained weight of the Winnie bullet?
19.) If bullets were recovered what was the retained weight of the Watts bullet?
20.) Got any pictures of these dead hogs?
Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN
11 November 2004, 11:36
BrentWhitworth, If you show up at the right place and time, I can show you 40-50 guys shooting .45-70-550s or at least 525s.
They run about 1200 fps depending on what powder etc.
Jeffe - both pigs were dead right? I'd be happy take on anything in the world with considerably less myself.
Brent
11 November 2004, 13:11
RNSQuote:
jeffeosso,
Quote:
Just this weekend past I saw, withing hours, the huge difference in effect (yes effect) between the 458 watts with 510 gr sp vs the 458 winmag with 405 gr rems...
the 458 killed pigs, just dead.
the watts "shattered" them, instant kills...
Of course, a pig doesn't offer alot of resistence to a .458 bullet.
I have a few questions if you don't mind:
1.) What are the muzzle velocities of the 458, 405 Win load, and the 458 Watts, 510 load? 2300 watts < !--color-->
2.) Did both the Winnie and the Watts loads penetrate completely through? yes < !--color-->
3.) You stated the 405 gr bullets used in the Winnie were Remingtons, what make/style were the 510 gr bullets used in the Watts? watts 500gr hrn sp< !--color-->
4.) How big was the hog shot with the Winnie? 150+< !--color-->
5.) How big was the hog shot with the Watts? 300+ < !--color-->
6.) Was the hog shot with the Winnie aware of the hunter, or not? yes< !--color-->
7.) Was the hog shot with the Watts aware of the hunter, or not? yes < !--color-->
8.) Where was the point of impact of the Winnie bullet on the hog? head and out the head< !--color-->
9.) Where was the point of impact of the Watts bullet on the hog? shoulder and out the head< !--color-->
10.) What was the angle of the hog to the shot with the Winnie? 90 < !--color-->
11.) What was the angle of the hog to the shot with the Watts? striaght away @ 45< !--color-->
12.) What was the diameter of the jelled/bloodshot meat in the wound channel with the Winnie? doesn't matter< !--color-->
13.) What was the diameter of the jelled/bloodshot meat in the wound channel with the Watts? doesn't matter < !--color-->
14.) What was the range to the hog shot with the Winnie? 30yrd < !--color-->
15.) What was the range to the hog shot with the Watts? 30 yrd< !--color-->
16.) If bullets were recovered what was the expanded diameter of the Winnie bullet? no way were they recovered< !--color-->
17.) If bullets were recovered what was the expanded diameter of the Watts bullet? no way recovered < !--color-->
18.) If bullets were recovered what was the retained weight of the Winnie bullet?
19.) If bullets were recovered what was the retained weight of the Watts bullet?
20.) Got any pictures of these dead hogs? lotts< !--color-->
Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN
Since I did the smashing with lots of witnesses.
RNS
11 November 2004, 09:12
BrentRay, the sectional density of a 550 gr bullet is the same whether fired from a .458 or .45-70 or .45-90. I think you have been seriously scarred by an early experience with the winchester express cartridges of the early 1900s. These are not at all what is meant by .45-70 or .45-90, etc.
That said, the .458 Win is more powerful than the others (although I often wonder how dead dead can be on the AR boards), but do not assume it has anything to do with sectional density per se.
Brent
11 November 2004, 08:59
WillYou have to be kidding, or just pimping us.
Moose have about much will to live as a radical, liberal Democrat after loosing Ohio.
One blow from my 280 or 7 Mag, I forget, and my one moose took the French-acting Kerry aproach to war, complete surrender.
13 November 2004, 06:55
PerNHi Karl Erik
Do you use an not expanding bullet for the moose hunt?
Quote:
I use bullets from Cast Performance. Usually they don�t expand at all I think if I hold them at 1800 f/s to 1900 f/s (I have never found any bullet yet). I have shot them in wet newspaper at that velocity and after traveling trough 48" they had not expand at all.
I have not shoot any big animal with my almost expanding bullet Lee Cast 450gr (to the right) at 1115ft/s
But since i could measure that the bullet did expand, last spring I shot a beaver ( Castor fibre ) with it and I almost lost it is since it took about 20s before the animal understood that the hart did not work any more.
Maybe your load with higher speed give more impact but ... 
11 November 2004, 13:35
jeffeossoNeal,
and the 405 was at 2400....
yep.. good post...
pig masher!!
jeffe
11 November 2004, 07:19
Karl-ErikI wonder if there is anyone here who have experience with caliber 45-70 or 458 WM and also a smaller caliber in hunting Moose?
What I wonder about is if you could se any diffence between the two calibers in killing power. Please tell me about the choice of bullet and velocity too.
Best regards
Karl-Erik
13 November 2004, 02:32
BrentPC - Jeffe,
Thanks for the reply. I shoot entirely black powder and know that those sorts of velocities are impossible.
I would love to find a .577 BPE rifle. The Alex Henry single sure was tempting. However, I'm in the midst of building a .50-90 Sharps Roller and saving dollars for an original Sharps so I'll have to pass.
If you need expansion on a slow bullet, why not shoot pure lead or say 40:1 cast and have at it? You can do that easily and at much lower velocities. You still won't recover any bullets.
Brent
12 November 2004, 02:39
BrentQuote:
Rob,
I have shot some smaller animals with my .585 Nyati with woodleigh 650 gr Black powder .577 bullets doing around 2400 fps may be 2500 fps and I have seen the effect your describing.
Blackpowder going 2400-2500 fps? Surely you mistyped or are joking.
Brent
12 November 2004, 00:28
PCRob,
I have shot some smaller animals with my .585 Nyati with woodleigh 650 gr Black powder .577 bullets doing around 2400 fps may be 2500 fps and I have seen the effect your describing.
11 November 2004, 12:01
BrentWhitworth.
ALL blackpowder loads (and that's all that I ever shoot), are compressed. Standard military loads with the light 405 gr bullets were loaded with highly compressed powder (approximately 1/2" of compression) and this sort of compression works well for hunting purposes, but heavier bullets are generally in order. Target work generally runs less compression.
Some flavors of powder, notably Swiss sporting bp will often work best with just a little compression (on the order of .1-.25").
BTW, compression is not done when seating the bullet but rather with a special compression die.
Brent
12 November 2004, 09:49
exabitI shot my first and only moose with my 458 Win Mag at about 70 meters (210 feet). The bullet was a Speer 400gr Flat Nose (originally designed for 45-70 velocities) leaving the barrel at about 700 m/s (2300 fps).
The bullet hit pretty far back in the lungs. I do prefer clean lung shots and both me and my brother have been totally brain washed during our upbringing by our dad about the importance of clean lung shots and one shot kills (he uses a 30-06 as does my brother).
"My" moose ran at absolute top speed right after the shot for about 100 meters (330 feet) before dying. I didn't even think about firing a second shot since my dad has been talking about the importance of letting the animal be after you know that you've fired a perfect first shot.
Comparing different calibers etc. when shooting lung shots is tricky business. But I intend to continue with lung shot for both deer and moose for the rest of my life. And I prefer the largest diameter bullets I can fire without any negative effects on my ability to hit the target exactly where I want.
12 November 2004, 02:12
ASS_CLOWNRobert,
I am happy you have the pictures! I too am tired of the BS about how the big bores aren't anymore effective than the medium bores, etc.
Hydraulic stops, yes I agree that is a VERY appropriate term. Because that is EXACTLY what is happening! I have argued the REALITY of hydraulically generated tissue trauma for YEARS here at AR and have been called everything from a fool, to a liar, to an ASS_CLOWN.
I cannot wait to see your photographic evidence of this AWESOME killing effect! I say bully for you for getting it!
Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN