Do any of you have any experience with the Rossi line of guns, the Puma in particular. They are making a 454 Casull now, and I am thinking of buying one, but I'd really like to get some background on these guns of recent manufacture before buying something I'll regret. No one else seems to have plans for making the 454 in a lever action, so I dont see as I have much of an alternative to the Rossi. Thanks

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SSGT Ryan E. Roberts USMC

robsguns,

I have heard this news some weeks ago. Rossi is very close to Taurus in Brazil.

The Taurus's engineers have experience with .454 Casull rounds.

Quality of gun is similar to Taurus one.

If I have one advice to you WAI...WAIT...WAIT

I remember the first .454 Casull revolver made by Taurus nothing works, this is the reason why Taurus have created a great gun after that called Raging Bull. Now the have experienced that they did not have at the time of the first revolver in 454 Casull.

I know loads for all my revolvers in .454 Casull but have no idea for this lever gun.

My advice is to wait but I think it'll be a great and versatile lever gun. Just my 0.02 cts

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BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
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BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

This new gun has been discussed over at www.sixguns.com and www.sixgunner.com; and the result is very negative. Apparently Rossi has just rechambered their 45 Colt; and the standard 1892 design can't take the pressure. It will quickly develop excessive headspace as the bolt gets hammered by the 62,000 PSI pressure of the 454 Casull cartridge. A successful design (length of the 1892, a bit heavier than an 1886) has been made by one of the frequent posters at those boards, but he hasn't found a way to get it into production.

If you do buy one of these rifles, I recommend that you also get a field/nogo headspace gauge for the 454 and use it every few shots.

Ryan, I've shot one in 44 mag a lot, one of my friends uses it for cowboy action shooting. It seems well made, and he has never had any problems with it. I don't think he has ever put anything hotter than a factory load through it though. FWIW - Dan

Here is the above mentioned post:

Thanks, Ole Dan... Here's the main
Fri Apr 26 10:23:40 2002
216.187.146.90

part of what I said on the SASS-Wire...

Pards;
Don't rush to be the first kid on your block to have one...!!!

Having done EXTENSIVE scientific and empirical research on the .454 Casull in lever actions, beginning some 15+ years ago, I can tell you that a '92 Winchester/copy in that caliber is a bad idea. That Winchester itself gave up on the idea, in either the '92 or '94, should tell you something -- and that was AFTER our own experimenting. They just had to see for themselves... Winchester put together a few '94 Big Bores in collaboration with Freedom Arms, and after limited testing, The Big Red "W" backed out of the project in a hurry.

Our own tests showed that the .454 generates far too much pressure (62,000+ psi) and bolt thrust for the angled locking geometry in either action. We also proved, at least to our satisfaction, that the '92 is a FAR stronger action than the '94, partly due to length of receiver sidewalls, partly because there is so LITTLE material left in the right wall of the '94 -- and even LESS in the '94 Big Bore. The necessary cuts for the loading gate, &c., remove a LOT of metal, and the newer, 'angle-eject' nonsense carves a BIG hunk out of the only strong part of the wall that was left.

We had '94s stretch and peen themselves beyond safe limits in as little as 30 rounds of factory-equivalent .454 Casull loads. NONE of the SIX we wrecked (of six tested) lasted as many as 50 rounds before becoming unserviceable. The one that failed at 30 rounds was a 1985-made Big Bore. The Marlin 336 we tested became a rattling wreck that would no longer lock up, in 20 rounds.

Our answer - from the beginning - was to design and build a NEW rifle, from the ground up, around the requirements of the .454 Cartridge. The rifle looks much like an '86 Winchester, although somewhat smaller and shorter, with the same VERTICAL - as in SQUARE-TO-THE-BORE - lockup. It is made of 17-4Ph steel, same as used by Freedom Arms in their revolvers. So far, the rifle has digested everything we've tried in it, has been proof tested, and has shown no dimensional changes or other incipient problems. It has accounted for several deer and elk, numerous coyotes and a wagon load of snowshoe hare and jackrabbits. Hey! you have to shoot at SOMETHING...!

The new Pumas have NOT been beefed up in any way, other than to have the magazine tubes tack-welded to keep them from backing out.

Recoil? Yes. As has been noted, it is very much like a .45-70 - IN A 8 1/2 POUND RIFLE. 300-gr. cast bullet loads come out of a 24" barrel at an even 2100fps -- the same as the old .45-90-300 HV loads. The same loads run 1700 fps from a 7 1/2" FA Casull revolver.

If you've ever wondered WHY there are no .454 lever guns on the market, these are the reasons.

Hang on to your money, boys, and watch the show from the sidelines. This could get interesting.

ADDENDUM - Re: '92 Winchester...

For several years, I had a Browning '92, which wore the very barrel with which we conducted all our above-mentioned tests - now chambered for .45 Colt. It was cut to 24", and tapered to match '92 Winchester octagon rifle profile. The rifle also had a full-length magazine tube and was outfitted with new wood and a rifle fore-end cap, and a Niedner steel buttplate. I cut the carrier back enough to allow seating 300 gr. cast bullets in the .45 Colt cases, and it worked flawlessly with them and with the shorter 250-260 gr. cast 'cowboy' slugs. That was my CAS rifle for anumber of years, and I carried it when I packed one of my .45 Colt Vaqueros into the back country. It would easily digest loads in the 50,000 - 52,000 psi range, but would get sticky if you pushed it at all past that limit -- so I didn't. It fired hundreds of my heavy .45 Colt loads, which ran right at 1800 fps from the 24" barrel. making it about equal to the .454 revolver.

Regards,

Buck

It begs the question: Why then would PUMA manufacture a firearm which will be punished to excessive headspacing and the resultant ugliness that is sure to cause?

If loads are kept to 55,000 PSI (which should be about the limit of the 1892 action built with modern steels) would it extend the life of this rifle?

CMcDermott, jackfish,
Thank you very much for this information. I'd say it would have been a very big mistake to purchase one of these guns until they have been proven to be able to stand up to the round. Glad I asked the questions around the gun forums before buying. Thank You.

BER007, Seems your advice was also worth its weight in gold. That was exactly what I have been doing, pending more info. on the gun. Thank you also.

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SSGT Ryan E. Roberts USMC

[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 05-25-2002).]

I think winchester is bringing out the .480 ruger in a lever. What is the velocity of this cartridge ?

Supposedly,the .480 was dropped in a hurry and that's understandable,since the M94 is weaker then the M92.
I had the same questions about the Rossi a while back. If the rifle won't handle the linebaugh 5 shot .45LC loads,then I don't know how the hell Rossi thought it would handle loads in 60,000 plus PSI range coming from the .454. The other thought was being able to shoot .45LC in the .454,but from everything I've been told,you have to keep the rifle extremely clean,or the pressures sky rocket because of the extra carbon build up from shooting the shorter round. A few gunsmiths have built .454casull's on the M92 action,but from all I've heard,these rifles come with instructions not to load with full house loads,so basically you're shooting an exspensive .45 LC. If these rifles fall apart like the independant tests have shown,you'd think rossi would be looking at a legal mess.

So robsguns,what do you do at Ft. lost in the woods? Instruct MOS training?

Jackfish... very interesting info. I suppose just assuming Rossi would have beefed up the Puma before-hand, is something I'll stop assuming. It made sense to me they'd just "know" to beef it up, but that may not be the case.

If one wants a Rossi (Navy Arms), buy the 45LC short rifle, and handload for it (or use BBA), which comes close to 454 'Revolver' speeds, at less pressure. ~~~Suluuq

[ 05-26-2002, 11:27: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ]

One comment on the Rossi. I called Legacy Sports, the people that are distributing these rifles here in the U.S., and spoke to the only person that could answere my questions, and that was their resident gun smith, of course I threw the mans name out. He said he'd fired 100 rounds through it, no problems noted. He also said that the gun HAD been beefed up. He further went on to say that an independent lab had fired 3000 rounds through one of these guns, testing it, and no negative affects had been noted. I think I'll still wait a while, just to see what happens with real life users experiences with the rifle. To me, neither 100 rds. or 3000 rds. is enough of a test. Shot to the point of the barrel being shot out, now thats what I'm looking for in a longevity test.

I AM thinking of getting one, but using my .454 loads in it, in which I use a 265-grain Cast Performance LBT flatnose at 1500 FPS, considerably reduced from the full-house .454 factory stuff. It should handle these, I hope??

All I want is for Winchester or someone else to produce an American-made Model 1892 that's true to the original version, and without some sort of off-beat safety. So far, I guess I've been asking for too much, or so it would seem........

AD

If I remember P.O. Ackley's comments concerning shooting hopped-up .45 Colt or .454 Casull loads in Winchester M92 lever-action rifles, wasn't the real problem the small diameter of the barrels at the threaded portion? Barrels made of standard barrel stell were not strong enough to resist chamber bulge where they screwed into the receiver. This problem was allegedly overcome by using a different steel for the barrel. According to Ackley, straight-walled cases cling to the chamber walls at the instant of firing, to the extent that bolt thrust was not a problem. He "proved" this by firing a M94 Winchester in .30/30 caliber with the locking bolt removed, and all that seemed to happen was that primers backed out. The case remained in the chamber. I have no idea if any of this story is true. According to the info jackfish furnishes above, it appears to be folklore.....