I'm doing my annual "ultimate North American Rifle Battery" exercise, and this time I came up with .22LR/.223/.260 Rem/.300 Win Mag/.375 H&H. I have no experience with big bores, have read a little bit. On the one hand, authors I respect such as Aagaard recommend a pretty substantial rifle weight for the big bores, like 10 lb for a .375. But heavy rifles are less fun in mountains and in bear country where you really want to have it in hand rather than slung.

So it comes to mind that a good solution would be to have two guns in the same cartridge and configuration, but different weights. Say a 10.5 lb* .375 for range work and situations where you can carry it slung, and an 8 lb shoulder tenderizer for in-hands carry. Same action, trigger, safety, scope, pull & drop, etc; difference would be in barrel contour and perhaps stock material. The heavy gun would promote range practice and thus good shooting in the field, the light gun would promote bringing "enough gun" into bear country.

I don't think I've seen this idea mentioned in the hunting realm, though I see it all the time concerning defensive handguns. The classic example being the Colt Commander + Colt Lightweight Commander combo, also the S&W stainless snubbies combined with Airweights. The ultralight crowd usually goes for muzzle breaks, but I've got more tinnitis than I want already, and I really hate muzzle blast; I'd have a hard time keeping myself in tune at the range with a big magnum w/ brake.

some pros: simplifies handloading, provides an equally effective backup gun in case the primary goes TU

some cons; double the expense, requires twice the effort to sort out handloads, zeroing, etc.

Are any of you ARers doing this?

* I really like the idea of heavy barrels, both for steadier shooting and resisting my tendency to break everything; I recently bent a friend's crowbar while doing some demolition (lesson learned; cheap import tools are cheap for a reason...).

I believe that some African countries will only allow you to import a single rifle in a given caliber.

Aside from that problem, a pair of .375 H&H sounds pretty good.

My solution to the customs conundrum for such a pair:

1) 6.75 pound .375 H&H custom Pre-64 M70 for 265-270-grainers at 2740 fps, or 300-grainer at 2530 fps, 24" barrel.

2) 8.75 pound .375 Wby M70 Classic Stainless for 300-grainers at 2740 fps, 24" barrel.

Those are the bare/empty weights of the rifles. You can still use the .375 H&H ammo accurately in the .375 Wby: know your rifles and scopes.

A better solution, two rifles for the same cartridge, but different brass headstamp with matching barrel engraving for each:

1) .395 H&H: This is a .395/.375 H&H Improved, brass is properly headstamped by changing a "7" to a "9" with an engraving tool.

2) .395 GSC: Same as the above, but brass is made by taking the Hornady basic cylindrical brass (which has only an "H" on the headstamp), and engrave (or stamp with bunter and press) ".395 GSC" at the other side, centered 180 degrees from the "H." Neck and trim the case, anneal, and load for hunting.

Yes, the .395 GSC is real. Gerard Schultz is working on it and his first run of bullets for this caliber will be the first tangible thing related to this "Thinking Man's Caliber." With the .395 GSC there will be no need for a switch-barrel rifle. It will be a "switch-bullet" rifle. Credit goes to Gerard Schultz for these thoughts. HV, FN, SP all of the same weight. KISS principle in its ultimate expression.

Now I want a .395 GSC and a . 395 H&H combo.

And a .398 Lapua.
And a .395 Tatanka
And a 400 Mbogo.

The .550 caliber is a neat new niche-filler, but the .395 is really versatile, useful from zero to +1000 yards.

The gun customs gents will be so dazzled by the brilliance of a .395 H&H and a .395 GSC combo, that they will wave you through no problem. Then you can use the same ammo in both rifles interchangeably.

You should also have one in stainless steel with a composite stock, no iron sights and one with a French grey engraved receiver and English walnut. I count four .375's as being the optimum but you could get by with three if the SS version is also the lightweight model. Then you move on to the next caliber.

Interesting dilema.....

One should have as many as he can afford.....

I have all I can afford...one!... A M-70 classic custom and it weighs slightly under 8 pounds without the scope.

It's designed as a big game rifle primarily that can double as a DG rifle. It's all I really need as far as I can see.

I like the combination of a Ruger M77 chambered in .416 Rigby with 400 gr pills @ 2400 fps and a Ruger No.1 chambered in .416 Rigby with 300 grainers @ 2850 fps.

vapodog, I'm of the opposite mindset. One should own the fewest rifles required to get the job done, but those rifles should be the best they can be. Not fancy or expensive, but reliable, accurate, and shootable. I'd rather have one customized Savage in an all-round deer cartridge that performs to my desires than a whole rack of stock Remingtons in a spectrum of chamberings to accomplish the same thing.

But in the case of a heavy, aside from a brake I don't see any way to combine real shootability with carryability. So two would be better than one.

I have put alot of thought into the minimalist battery. The thought of two rifles in one caliber never came to mind however. I think though if a person wanted to minimize their rifles with no specialty gun he could do it with 3 rifles and hunt the world. 22lr, 30-06, and 375 H&H.

.22, .30-06, and .375? How boring is that?

Speaking of the .375 wby, how is the case life compared to the H&H? I took a quick look on the web and at $2/case for Wby headstamped brass it seems cheaper to hire a rodeo cowboy to go lasso the quarry rather than shoot at it!

I realise one can easily fireform H&H cases, but then you've got the wrong headstamp on an African cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:
.22, .30-06, and .375? How boring is that?

Sure it's boring! However, most rational thinking is.

I NEVER let my wife know I have these thoughts. I have her convinced that each species requires a rifle in a unique caliber. Or at least she lets me think I have her convinced.

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:

Speaking of the .375 wby, how is the case life compared to the H&H? I took a quick look on the web and at $2/case for Wby headstamped brass it seems cheaper to hire a rodeo cowboy to go lasso the quarry rather than shoot at it!

I scooped up 3 boxes of new Weatherby/Norma on eBay for a song and a couple more from Nosler's pro shop. All 100 brass were under $1/each. I spent the summer loading.....testing.........loading......testing.......ad nauseum. I'm still on my first 10 cases. They are all still tight as a flicker's nest in the primer pocket and grow very little. I realize the growth is due, in a big part, to the chamber. But, I'm VERY pleased with the brass life.

P.S. An 8 lb. .375 H&H won't be a shoulder mangler with a decent stock shape and a Sims pad. My Wby. weighs 8 1/2 lbs. and is not viscious at all.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
I NEVER let my wife know I have these thoughts. I have her convinced that each species requires a rifle in a unique caliber. Or at least she lets me think I have her convinced.

Ya know, its ironic; a guy's gotta be dumb to get married in the first place, but once he does, he has to start thinking 4 moves ahead like a chess grand master if he wants to have any influence on the expenditure side of the ledger.

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
P.S. An 8 lb. .375 H&H won't be a shoulder mangler with a decent stock shape and a Sims pad. My Wby. weighs 8 1/2 lbs. and is not viscious at all.

Hmm. There may be something to this. Build a .375 Wby on the heavier chassis and with a 24" barrel. Build a .375 H&H on a light chassis with a 21-22" barrel. The heavy rifle for range practice, longer range hunting, and mounted/guided hunts where I wouldn't be carrying the thing all day. The light rifle for bear defense & mountain hunting for elk and such.

While we're on the 375 Wby, what muzzle velocities are reasonable for 250-260 grain and 300 grain bullets? Is 4895 bulky enough for light practice loads using 225-235 grain bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
P.S. An 8 lb. .375 H&H won't be a shoulder mangler with a decent stock shape and a Sims pad. My Wby. weighs 8 1/2 lbs. and is not viscious at all.

Hmm. There may be something to this. Build a .375 Wby on the heavier chassis and with a 24" barrel. Build a .375 H&H on a light chassis with a 21-22" barrel. The heavy rifle for range practice, longer range hunting, and mounted/guided hunts where I wouldn't be carrying the thing all day. The light rifle for bear defense & mountain hunting for elk and such.

While we're on the 375 Wby, what muzzle velocities are reasonable for 250-260 grain and 300 grain bullets? Is 4895 bulky enough for light practice loads using 225-235 grain bullets?

My .375 Wby. is 8 1/2 lbs. (26" tube) scope mounted and magazine empty. IMO, this is not a "heavier chassis". Quite easy to carry around, really. It's an A-Bolt Stainless Stalker (which is not a DGR ).

I'm getting 3060 fps from 250 gr. Sierras over H-414. Accuracy is a bit over 1" for 5 shots at 100 yds.

Ideal 3 rifle battery 223 rem , 7mm RUM ,416 Rem Mag , All in custom ruger actions....All synthetic stocks and stainless barrels..

quote:

While we're on the 375 Wby, what muzzle velocities are reasonable for 250-260 grain and 300 grain bullets? Is 4895 bulky enough for light practice loads using 225-235 grain bullets?

If you go to ARs home page

www.accuratereloading.com you will see a reloading section and calibre listing. RIP has a very extensive listing of 375 Wby loadings.

As to 4895 and reduced loads with 225-235 grain bullets, what sort of velocities are you seeking.

By the way, here is the link to RIP's loads for 375 Wby

http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
My .375 Wby. is 8 1/2 lbs. (26" tube) scope mounted and magazine empty. IMO, this is not a "heavier chassis". Quite easy to carry around, really. It's an A-Bolt Stainless Stalker (which is not a DGR ).

My heavier chassis comment was for the rifles I would think of building. say 10.5-11.0 lb for the heavy, and 8.0-9.0 lb for the light.

Dang, 3000 fps with a 250 boattail, that gives 300 Win Mag trajectories according to the Infinity software.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
As to 4895 and reduced loads with 225-235 grain bullets, what sort of velocities are you seeking.

Well, I don't know really. I'm thinking 2400-2600 fps. Fast enough to be accurate, slow enough to have low recoil, and maybe middlin' velocity to allow decent bullet performance from a plain jane bullet like the Hornady on medium game like deer/black bear/caribou/hogs.

Thanks for the heads up on the .375 Wby data here, I should have known there would be more data here than on the web.

Another .375 question; with the various up-engined .375 cartridges, I would think there would be a market for more premium bullets in the 325-350 grain weight range. Like a 350 grain Swift A-Frame semi-spitzer for buff. Is there some cartridge limitation, or is it simply a matter of folks upgunning to 416?

I would say about mid 60s of 4895 will get you in the 2500 area with 225 grainer. You won't need fillers.

I use 85 grains of Varget in the 378 with 225s and 270 grainers and no fillers. These are extremely low pressure loads.

If very good accuracy is a key point then in general it is best with reduced loads if you can reload at the range or where you shoot. The difference between the accuracy of good and not so good reduced loads can be and often is much greater than with normal loads.

You often have to play about and often the combination you think might be in the right area turns out to be the worst and vice versa.

As an example, in the 378 referred to above with 225 grainers and Varget it shoots very consistent 3 shot 1 inch triangles. However, it should really be better with a 3031 burn rate and the same 85 grains. However with our Australian counterpart of 3031 (which I think Hodgdon don't sell) it should be better with 85 grains of that powder. However, it just won't group with that powder.

At the real low end, several 375 H&Hs have given 1 inch accuracy with around 39-41 grains of H4227 and 220 grain Hornady flat points. Velocity is at 2100. Another couple of grains would probably do the trick in the bigger 375 Wby.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:

Dang, 3000 fps with a 250 boattail, that gives 300 Win Mag trajectories according to the Infinity software.

That load is definitely full of whoopass!! I put one of those Sierras through about 5 feet of a 677 lb. black bear about a month ago. Bang-flop.

I am currently working with Speer 235 grainers and reduced charges of IMR-4320 for all-purpose deer & whatnot loads. Will post up some findings as things progress.