I had a chance to run out to the range over the noon hour to shoot some .450 Dakota loads across the chrony. With a 500 grain Hornaday, 103 grains of Ramshot Hunter was running 2277 fps. 106 grains of Ramshot Hunter was pushing that same 500 grain Hornaday at 2326 fps. My rifle is from AHR and it has not been scoped yet. It weighs in around ten pounds. Recoil is substantial. I figure a set of Talley QD rings and a Leupold 2.5 power scope should add about another pound and make it just right. I plan to back it off to about 101 grains which should be running about 2200 fps. That's plenty.

Rich, if you were running your .450 Dakota to 2400 fps, you da man

So you guys with .458 Lotts understand, 101 grains of Ramshot Hunter is the STARTING LOAD and 106 grains is only half way to the top. These are really modest pressure loads.

Sounds like you have a very useful load, ought to do well. Nice to know you can keep going if you want to! 500gr at 2400 fps can best be described as stout! I'm not sure how those 460 wby guys keep their heads on their shoulders!

John

The 450Dkota was my first big bore and has a really good throat. With 112gr. of IMR 4831 and a 500gr. Hornady it is easy to get 2530 out of my 26" Lilja barrel. It will shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards if I am up to it on any given day. Old style 400gr. X bullets can be launched at 2800. That load is flat shooting and has pounded several bison.

Dave, I ran to my range too with a wholly different day! I was chronographing various loads from various rifles and the second round from my 450 Ackley popped the elevation turret off my Redfield aperature sight! I looked for a half hour and never found the parts (the round screw-head type). Damn the luck! It was a 500 gr Hornady at a little over 2100; nothing radical. Goes to show that you never know what ills can befall a DGR.

Congrats on a good day at the range with your new 450 Dakota Dave. I had a more humbling experience with my 500 Jeffrey, but still shot good groups. I've learned the value of good posture on the bench with my little beauty lol



Chuck

Dave,

the loads I took to Zimbabwe were right at 2370 for the solids and 2400 +/- for the Swift A-frame soft points. That put them all in one small stack at 200. I got carried away at Old Bull's shoot two weeks ago in Helena. Left my cast bullet 2000fps 416 Rigby ammo on the freezer and ended up shooting the 450D with loads that clocked nearly 2500fps for a twenty-plus round pounding on the clock. Wayne won again, he was smart enough to replace the 600 & 700 OK rounds with his 375! Smarter than me anyway. My shoulder is still multi-hued shades of purple and yellow. I was able to take a dozen rounds of 500gr at 1700fps cast bullet loads for the RemBai DR to the range yesterday and get a half-ass zero with the left barrel. Now to do the load testing with that barrel, get a good hunting load, and then see if I can regulate the right one close. MOB (minute of buffalo) should not be too hard to find. I am prejudiced, but that 450 Dakota cartridge with the 2400 +/- loads should be more than adequate for the world.

Rich
DRSS

Rich
DRSS

Yes, the 450 Dakota is a sweetheart of mine too.
It has many years more field trial proof than the me-too 450 Rigby upstart that it inspired.
Plumb nostalgia inspiring!

That must be why the Mauser revival included it in the standard chamberings:



Iron sight (machine rest?) factory target seems to speak of inherent accuracy of the cartridge,
as well as the rifle, despite the skinny 25" barrel that is only .670" at the muzzle, just like a standard CZ .458WinMag/Lott.



Target signed by "G. Prechtl" ... ???
Action maker, rifle builder, and targetmeister ... ???

The gossip here has been that Art Alphin helped Dakota design this cartridge, and the .416 Dakota too ... ???

Herr Prechtl ist der Meister!

SchieBmeister!

The standard load for the 450 Dakota is supposed to be a 500-grainer at 2450 fps.

I assume Herr SchieBmeister got his 500-grain Woodleighs up to 2450 fps.

Herr Andy of Oregon is the 450 Dakota Loadmeister.
I picked over his loads to get some good ones, and added a RL-15 plus Dacron filler load.
Here are some choice loads:

New, unfired 450 Dakota brass (latest make) supplied from Sturgis, SD stock.
F215 primer
25" barrel (Mauser)

RL-15 86.0 grains plus 5 grains of Dacron:
temp: 84 F
450-grain North Fork FP solid: 2279 fps (COL 3.587")
450-grain Barnes TSX soft: 2245 fps (COL 3.735")

H4350 Extreme 105.0 grains:
temp: 85 F
500-grain Barnes TSX soft: 2302 fps (COL 3.735")

RL-15 100.0 grains:
temp: 84 F
450-grain North Fork FP solid: 2594 fps
450-grain Barnes TSX soft: 2554 fps

Varget Extreme
temp: 92 F
450-grain North Fork FP solid:
95.0 grains: 2412 fps
96.0 grains: 2440 fps
97.0 grains: 2475 fps
98.0 grains: 2493 fps
99.0 grains: 2520 fps

Above are all averages for 3 shots chronographed.
The 99.0 grain Varget load with the North Fork 450-grain FP solid gave an extreme spread of ZERO FPS!
First time that ever happened to me for 3 shots!

That load is most impressive.
I shot it at 50 yards with iron sights and it did 1-inch for 3 shots, about the limit for me with irons.

So impresive I tried it in the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo (IWBB) with calibration on "Elephant Skull Setting."



Two 1/2" plywood boards backing each water bucket. Each compartment is 10 inches wide, 10 in a row:

The 450 Dakota with 450-grain North Fork FP solid made it through the 7th bucket and only keyholed at 69" of travel.
It dented the first board in the 7th partition.
7 buckets and 12 boards were fully exploded, splintered, split, penetrated ...
more damage at entrance, less at end.









It exited at the end, but similar tests with roundnose solids have them going out the side of the IWBB at about half that much travel.

O.K., RNs may work better in real elephant skulls than in the IWBB.
Keep your pants on 465H&H.

The 450 Dakota with 450-grain FN solid (brass or copper) @ 2520 fps would be my pick for elephant.

Anything bigger than elephant requires the 500 Mbogo with 570-grain FN at 2500 fps ... or the mythical .510/550-grain FN at 2600 fps.

Is the Buffalo back in the corral ...??

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Dave,

the loads I took to Zimbabwe were right at 2370 for the solids and 2400 +/- for the Swift A-frame soft points. That put them all in one small stack at 200. I got carried away at Old Bull's shoot two weeks ago in Helena. Left my cast bullet 2000fps 416 Rigby ammo on the freezer and ended up shooting the 450D with loads that clocked nearly 2500fps for a twenty-plus round pounding on the clock. Wayne won again, he was smart enough to replace the 600 & 700 OK rounds with his 375! Smarter than me anyway. My shoulder is still multi-hued shades of purple and yellow. I was able to take a dozen rounds of 500gr at 1700fps cast bullet loads for the RemBai DR to the range yesterday and get a half-ass zero with the left barrel. Now to do the load testing with that barrel, get a good hunting load, and then see if I can regulate the right one close. MOB (minute of buffalo) should not be too hard to find. I am prejudiced, but that 450 Dakota cartridge with the 2400 +/- loads should be more than adequate for the world.

Rich
DRSS

Rich
DRSS

Rich:

If you want to try a reduced load in your .450 Dakota, you might try Accurate 5744. Johan sent me this:

ACCURATE POWDERS:
Caliber:      .450 Dakota.
Barrel length:     24”
Reduced loads:
Powder:           Accurate - 5744.
Bullet weight: 500 grains
Low load: 52.0 (1700-1800 fps)
Mid range load: 58.0 grains (1800 -1900 Fps)
Maximum load: 64.0 grains (2075-2175 fps)

I have tried the 58 grain load and it is really pleasant to shoot. I shot it without a filler and it worked fine. 

2450 fps with a 500 grain bullet is just too much for this old guy         

For anyone wanting to play around with QuickLoad and the 450 Dakota:

138.8 grains (average of 5 cases measured by me)

= Gross water capacity of the once-fired 450 Dakota brass with headstamp:
"Dakota Arms 450"

Max brass length: 2.900"

And consider SD and bullet length/construction:

.510-caliber 555-grainer SD = .305
.458-caliber 450-grainer SD = .306
.375-caliber 300-grainer SD = .305

Suggests that the 450 Dakota with 450-grainer at 2520 fps should behave like an Uber-375H&H.
UberKill.
No surprises.

450-grain monometal copper bullets are about the same length as the 500-grain lead-filled bullets.

Most of the .458's, including my 450 Dakota, have a 1:14" TWIST.
That seems to be good with the 500-grain cup&core/lead-filled bullets.
Maybe not so good with the long monometal 500-grainers.
No worries with the 450-grain monometals, especially since they are speedier for length,
thus get higher revs,
more stable,
don't "over expand."
450-grain monos are just better in any .458.

Less recoil too, even at higher speeds and lower pressures than with 500-grainers at 2450 fps.

North Fork bullet lengths, .458/450-gr:

Flat Point Banded Solid: 1.366"
Cup Point Banded Universal: 1.389"
Soft Point Grooved solid shank: 1.450"

North Forks are at least as accurate as Woodleighs, and decisively better than Barnes in my rifle.

Macifej,
After the 450-grain North Fork at 2520 fps exited at the backside of the 7th waterbucket,
I devised a cover of boards and tarp for the backend of the IWBB,
in hopes of snagging the tumblers going out the sides.
No luck yet, the rest have stopped in the guts of the IWBB:

How many compartments does the IWBB have in total ...??

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
How many compartments does the IWBB have in total ...??

Macifej,
At the risk of being accused of highjacking the thread ...

The IWBB has 10 compartments that are 10" deep.
It used to be 12 compartments that were 8" deep.

Ahoy!

Thinking a 458" x 450 Grain FN @ 2750 would clear all ten ...

There was no difference between a .375/300-grainer at 2500 fps versus 2700 fps, using the copper FN of GSC.
The water resistance is greater with higher velocity.
Makes a bigger splash and more splinters in the entry compartments.
Best yet was the S&H Brass FN .395/330-grainer at 2812 fps: Almost got through 8th compartment.
Stopped by the second board behind the 8th bucket.
Edged out the GSC Copper .395/340-grainer at 2726 fps.
The GSC was stopped by the first board behind the 7th bucket.

Both bullets were driven by the same charge: 96.0 grains of H4350:

GSC copper FN: .395/340-grain (SD = .311) @ 2726 fps
S&H brass FN: .395/330-grain (SD = .302) @ 2812 fps

Nose shape and material difference:
Brass deformed less, and had smaller meplat to start, less resistance, but big enough for "super cavitating superpenetrator"

.395 Tatanka: Ahoy!

Since RP says I am the 450 Dakota loadmeister, here goes.

All this w original brass.

Will post some w new brass later.

Andy

PS This is one of the easiest ctgs you will ever reload for.

RELOADING DATA FOR 450 Dakota.
C 2004 Andy Tillman
CZ 550 action, 21 ½ inch barrel, Dakota brass, Federal 215 or 215-Match primer.
These reloads have not been pressure tested. Use this data at your own risk.

RL-15

400 gr North Fork

96 gr 2530 fps 3.715 ocl
98 gr 2558 fps 3.715 ocl
100 gr. 2632 fps
102 gr. 2666 fps
104 gr. 2702 fps Just compressed.
104 gr. 2662 fps 3.745 ocl. Federal 215-M.
104 gr. 2676 fps
104 gr. 2698 fps

400 gr Barnes RN Solid

100 gr Error 3.710 ocl
102 gr. 2624 fps
104 gr 2657 fps 3.626 ocl
105 gr. 2683 fps Federal 215-M. Cycled well.
106 gr 2724 fps

425 grain Rhino SSP 3.697 OCL.

96 gr. 2242 fps
98 gr 2331 fps
100 gr 2328 fps
102 gr 2413 fps
104 gr 2426 fps
106 gr 2597 fps
108 gr 2657 fps Probably maximum pressure at this temperature.
110 gr 2707 fps

450 gr Barnes RN Solid

100 gr 2532 fps
100 gr. 2495 fps.
102 gr 2569 fps 3.699 ocl
102 gr. 2553 fps 3.67 ocl Federal 215-M.
103 gr 2602 fps

102 gr 2555 fps
102 gr 2546 fps

450 gr GSFN

100 gr 2453

450 gr Barnes X 3.726 ocl, 2.859 case length. Heavy copper fouling. Don’t use.

96 gr 2379 fps
98 gr 2453 fps
100 gr 2495 fps No compression yet. Primer round on edge flat on surface.

450 gr North Fork

96 gr 2464 fps
98 gr. 2505 fps
100 gr. 2547 fps

100 gr. 2565 fps 3.740 ocl. Very consistant.
2555 fps
2558 fps
2543 fps

450 gr North Fork FN Solid

96 gr 2435 fps 3.725 ocl
98 gr 2498 fps
100 gr 2508 fps

450 gr North Fork FN Solid Truncated Cone.

100 gr 2357 fps 3.725 OCL (2395 fps NF CP, 2430 fps NF SP).Same POI w cold barrel.

450 gr Kodiak RNSP 3.650-3.660 ocl. Try 0.015 off rifling next time. (3.675)

100 gr 2478 2 x 2 ½ inch group. 2.5 square w GSFN.
2488
2491
2469

465 gr A-Square RN Solid 3.647 OCL seated to canelure.

96 gr 2,414 fps ¾ x 1 1/8 inch group with first five shots at 50 yards. On POA.
96 gr 2,398 fps
98 gr 2481 fps
98 gr 2464 fps
100 gr 2513 fps
100gr 2510 fps

100 gr 2557 fps 1 ½ inch Low and On at 100 yards.

485 grain Rhino RN 3.722 -3.731 OCL.

92 gr 2236 fps
94 gr 2334 fps
96 gr 2346 fps
98 gr 2381 fps
100 gr. 2441 fps Good load.

500 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 3.50 ocl (about 0.250 inches below the crimp canelure)

96 gr. 2407 fps
96 gr. 2412 fps
98 gr. 2438 fps

500 gr Swift

96 gr 2372 fps
96 gr 2417 fps
96 gr 2397 fps

BOFORS (N203)

400 gr Woodleigh

98 gr 2578 fps 3.5 ocl (to cannelure)
98 gr 2542 fps

425 grain Rhino 3.680 OCL

108 gr 2716 fps

450 gr Barnes Triple Shock 3.723 OCL just below canelure Less blue copper fouling and more accurate than Barnes X.

94 gr 2440 fps Easy extraction. Accurate.
96 gr 2500 fps Easy extraction. Accurate. Good load.
98 gr 2580 fps On at 50 yards. Good load.
100 gr 2616 fps Sticky bolt. 1 ½ “high.

450 grain North Fork FN Solid 3.630 (2nd groove).

102 gr 2612 fps Flat primer w slight round edge.
104 gr 2603 fps Reduce 2 grains.

450 grain North Fork CP 3.632 OCL (3rd groove).

102 gr 2617 fps Round primer!
104 gr 2597 fps Reduce 2.0 grains.

450 grain North Fork SP 3.738 OCL (3rd groove).

100 gr 2561 fps Cold barrel. NF SP, FN, CP very accurate. Overlapped 100 yards.

465 gr A-Square RN Solid 3.652 OCL just below canelure.

92 gr 2349 fps
94 2467 fps
96 gr 2461 fps
98 gr 2538 fps
100 gr 2563 fps

485 grain Rhino RN 3.732 OCL

100 gr 2527 fps Over max load. Do not use. Test shot for water buckets. No moly coating on previous shots caused pressure spike?

500 gr Kodiak 3.617 ocl

94 gr 2357 fps
96 gr 2392 fps
98 gr 2455 fps

500 Woodleigh 3.718 – 3.726 ocl

94 gr 2333 fps
96 gr 2336 fps
98 gr 2384 fps Low pressure.

500 Swift 3.748 ocl

96 gr 2407 fps

96 gr 2337 fps Cold barrel.
96 gr 2384 fps
96 gr 2425 fps

500 Barnes X 3.758 ocl

96 gr 2406 fps

IMR 4064

400 gr North Fork

100 gr 2637 fps
102 gr 2692 fps 3.74 ocl
102 gr 2712 fps
104 gr 2774 fps 3.74 ocl
104 gr 2735 fps 3.715 ocl

450 gr North Fork 3.748 ocl

94 gr 2417 fps
96 gr 2518 fps
98 gr 2521 fps 4064 was faster burning than RL-15 with the 400 gr and slower w 450.

96 gr 2516 fps 3.740 ocl.
98 gr 2563 fps
98 gr. 2573 fps 3.745 ocl, Federal 215 Match at 85 degrees F.
98 gr. 2577 fps Less pressure than 100 gr. RL15 at same vel. Good load.
100 gr 2607 fps Still safe pressure.

98 gr 2465 fps
98 gr 2515 fps

450 gr Barnes RN Solid

98 gr 2332 fps ?
98 gr 2553 fps
98 gr 2430 fps
98 gr 2416 fps

450 gr North Fork FN Solid

98 gr. 2561 fps. 3.609 ocl 2nd to last driving band. F215-M.

450 gr GSFN Retest at 3.730 ocl.

98 gr. 2546 fps. 3.58 ocl 2nd to last driving band. Extractor did not engage rim.
100 gr. 2605 fps. 3.58 ocl. Extractor did not engage rim. Don’t use.

98 gr 2502
2524

450 gr Barnes X 3.754 ocl. Worst copper fouling I’ve ever seen. Don’t use.

96 gr 2459 fps
98 gr 2524 fps Slightly compressed. 3.746 ocl
100 gr 2599 fps Round primer. Compressed load.

450 gr Swift 3.709 ocl (0.030 off rifling).

98 gr 2460 fps Mild.
100 gr 2531 fps Sharp shoulder, round primer. No compression. Nice load.

450 gr Kodiak RN 3.65 - 3.660 ocl

98 gr 2473 fps

98 gr 2496 Not very accurate. (3 x 3 inches).
2501
2496
2521

100 gr 2561 Not very accurate.
2573
2546
2564

465 gr A-Square RN Solid

94 gr 2510 fps Cold barrel. 5” Low, 2 “ Left.
94 gr 2524 fps 2 “ Low, 1” Left

96 gr 2546 fps 1” Low, I” Left. Within one inch above.
96 gr 2536 fps Clover leaf above. Round primers.

98 gr Error. ½ “ Right and On.
98 gr Error ½ “ Right and On.

IMR 4895

450 gr North Fork 3.730 ocl

94 gr 2620 fps???
96 gr 2497 fps
98 gr 2556 fps Flat primer in cool weather. Probably too fast burning.
100 gr 2613 fps Still not compressed.

VARGET

450 gr North Fork 3.734 ocl

94 gr 2503 fps More air space left in case than with 4064. Good for 500 gr bullet?
96 gr 2540 fps Round primer
98 gr 2553 fps Flatter
100 gr 2608 fps Barely any radius left
102 gr 2621 fps

IMR 4350

450 gr North Fork

104 gr. 2370 fps
106 gr. 2414 fps
108 gr 2438 fps 3.710 ocl
110 gr 2503 fps 3.748 ocl. Don’t exceed 110 gr due to erratic velocity.
112 gr. 2431 fps Beginning to loose velocity at increased load density!
114 gr. 2412 fps 3.801 ocl. +100% loading density. Erratic vel but low preessure.

450 gr. Barnes X 3.754 ocl.

110 gr. 2354 fps Heavily compressed. Switch to faster burning powder.

450 gr. GSFN 3.73 ocl.

106 gr. Error.
108 gr. 2416 fps.
110 gr. 2464 fps. On with 112 gr. 450 gr North Fork.

VHITA VOURI 550

450 gr. North Fork

98 gr. 2383 fps 3.740 ocl.
100 gr. 2445 fps
102 gr. 2500 fps
104 gr. 2530 fps Still not filled to base of shoulder.
104 gr. 2513 fps Cold barrel. Soft shoulder.
106 gr. 2570 fps Completely round primer!
108 gr. 2602 fps Just compressed. 2/3 round primer. Best high velocity load?

450 gr. Kodiak RNSP 3.650-3.660 ocl.

108 gr. 2556 fps Most accurate powder for of Kodiak. 1 x 1.5” (3).
2606 fps
2579 fps
2574 fps

450 gr. GSFN 3.73 ocl.

450 gr Barnes RN Solid

108 gr. 2412 fps
108 gr 2538 fps
108 gr 2536 fps
108 gr 2548 fps

To Andy:

Your Varget loads for the North Fork 450-grain soft:

VARGET

450 gr North Fork 3.734 ocl

94 gr 2503 fps More air space left in case than with 4064. Good for 500 gr bullet?
96 gr 2540 fps Round primer
98 gr 2553 fps Flatter
100 gr 2608 fps Barely any radius left
102 gr 2621 fps

Compares very well with my result for the North Fork FP solid 450-grainer,
which is a shorter bullet with bands instead of the grooved solid shank on the soft.
The FP solid and Cup Point are both shorter, banded, and have lesser Start Pressure, than the grooved soft.
Less friction in the bore too.

The North Fork FP-Solid and Cup Point will give lower pressures, and velocities, for a given powder charge, than the North Fork soft.

99.0 grains of Varget gave only 2520 fps with the FP solid.
I am hoarding the softs, have less of them than the solids and Cup Points.
When I try the soft, it will require less Varget to get the speed of the solid.

Comparing your loads and QuickLoad, looks like about 97 to 98 grains of Varget to get about 2500 fps at 54 to 58 Kpsi.

I am guessing from QuickLoad that 99.0 grains of Varget with the 450-grain NorthFork FP solid is about 58,000 psi.

I have played with the Start Pressure and COL of the North Fork FP solid to make QuickLoad show that 99.0 grains Varget and 25" barrel gives:
2534 fps
58,411 psi.
I cannot vouch for the reality of the pressure, but that velocity with 99.0 grains was close to reality (2520 fps by my chrono).

Anyway, it is the perfect load for my rifle, no pressure signs, and seems more gentle than this:

9.5 pound rifle recoil:
450-grainer at 2534 fps >>> 81.47 ft.lb. @ 23.48 fps

Well below the 100 ft.lbs. @ 30 fps "comfort-control level" where some shooters begin to flinch.

QuickLoad Comparison
9.5# Rifle with 25" barrel

450-grain North Fork Soft Point, COL 3.734", 3625 psi Start Pressure (bullet length = 1.450")
This is a grooved-solid-copper-shanked bullet with lead-filled nose, similar to a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw with grooved shank.
THIS ASSUMES THE SAME START PRESSURE AS A CONVENTIONAL JACKETED BULLET ... it might be less.
The NF soft has higher Start Pressure and is longer than the NF solid.
Just the opposite of the conventional cup&core soft versus steel-FMJ/solid pairing.

Varget: 98.0 grains 2514 fps 58,174 PSI ... recoil 80.08 ft.lbs. @ 23.28 fps
H4350: 105.0 grains 2521 fps 52,061 PSI ... recoil 83.51 ft.lbs. @ 23.77 fps

Maybe H4350 will be better than Varget with the North Fork 450-grain Soft.
There is a difference between the NF SP soft versus the FP and CP.

Ramshot Hunter is very similar to H4350 according to QuickLoad.
Those two have to be tops for the 500-grain Woodleighs and Hornadys.

For example:

500-grain Woodleigh PP Soft: 3.750" COL, 3625 psi Start Pressure (bullet length = 1.394")

H4350: 105.7 grains 2450 fps 55,147 PSI ... recoil 93.70 ft.lbs. @ 25.18 fps

That is the 450 Dakota "standard factory load," according to QuickLoad.

quote:

H4350: 105.7 grains 2450 fps 55,147 PSI ... recoil 93.70 ft.lbs. @ 25.18 fps

That's a lot of recoil Y'all ...

And if the rifle weight is increased from 9.5# to 11.0#:
9.5/11.0 = .8636

93.70 ft.lbs. X .8636 = 80.92 ft.lbs.
25.18 fps X .8636 = 21.75 fps

Plumb gentle in an 11-pound rifle.

95-pound rifle's even easier tuh figger, 'thout even takin' off mah moccasins.
Lessee ... in mah haid, w'eyes closed ... ten times thuh rifle weight makes fer one tenth thuh recoil energy an' speed:

9.370 ft.lbs. @ 2.518 fps

Ya-Suh ..!!!

Guys, I have a question about the brass. I seem to have two types of brass. One batch is marked "Dakota Arms 450" and the other is marked "450 Dakota". Has anyone noticed any appreciable difference in the brass?

Dave,
Andy probably knows any difference in capacity.
IIRC, the "Dakota Arms 450" headstamp is the latest version.
"450 Dakota" headstamp is older.

There have been various makers of the brass.
Norma, Jamison, maybe even BeLL/BELL/MAST, and A-Square.

The last I heard was that Jamison made the older "450 Dakota,"
then Dakota Arms contracted with Norma to make the latest "Dakota Arms 450."
This even though jamison is located one block from Dakota Arms, in Sturgis, SD.

I think both headstamps are good stuff.
Just need to be segregated for any case capacity differences, for surely there must be some difference, small as it may be.

Maybe you could measure the two cases for gross water capacity difference,
using some once-fired brass,
and enlighten us until Loadmeister Andy chips in again.

I have only one type: "Dakota Arms 450"

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I have a question about the brass. I seem to have two types of brass. One batch is marked "Dakota Arms 450" and the other is marked "450 Dakota". Has anyone noticed any appreciable difference in the brass?

What Andy said before:

************************************************
Be sure to check which variety of 450 Dakota brass you have, or are buying. They are not entirely the same. The new brass has about - 100 fps with same powder charge as my original 450 Dakota brass. Both are good quality with many many full power reloads on each case.

The new brass says Dakota Arms 450.

It is also quite a bit lighter than the original brass, and that is one reason I used it as I was watching my ammo weight in case airlines actually weighed my ammo.

The new and old brass did not shoot to same POI in my rifle either. About 2 inches different. So you will have to settle on one or the other if possible.

Andy
************************************************

So it seems that the older brass is thicker, lesser capacity, will give higher pressures and velocities with a given charge of powder.
Andy says 100 fps difference.
I think that would be the Jamison "450 Dakota" brass.

I think the newer "Dakota Arms 450" headstamped brass is made by Norma.

That is the same maker as for 460 Wby and .375 Wby brass. It may be thinner, but still very high quality.
You can get more powder in and ultimately higher velocities,
for any given pressure maximum level you choose, using the newer brass:
Gross water capacity= 138.8 grains

If you want lower velocity and lesser recoil, it will be more easily accomplished with less powder in the older brass.
But pressures will be higher for whatever velocity level chosen.
Gross water capacity = less than 138.8 grains

I would hotrod the new "Dakota Arms 450" brass,
for use with maximum velocity loads.

I would make moderate loads out of the "450 Dakota" brass.

Some of my previous hearsay:
************************************************
Hearsay has it that

Jamison made at least some of the older, heavier brass with headstamp: "Dakota" (circling the primer) "450"
and
Norma made the latest, lighter/greater capacity brass: "Dakota Arms" (circling the primer) "450"

RL-15 or Varget with 450-grainers
or
H4350 with 500-grainers
***********************************

When I started playing with my Dakota Andy was kind enought to send me his data. I found XMR 4064 shot all 450 gr Northfork loads to the same point of impact no matter the load from 92-98 gr. The 98 gr load shot a 3 shot one hole group from a tripod.
I regulated my sights to the 98 gr load. It was all the velocity I wanted.
The rifle weighs 8# and is very pleasant to shoot. Much more so than my 458 Lott.

Guys, thanks for the information about the brass.

I am going to load up several rounds of each tonight with 94 grains of Reloder 15 and a 450 grain TSX and I will try and shoot them across the chrony on Thursday and post the results.

I managed to get back out to the range this morning with the .450 Dakota. Earlier this week I had loaded up ten rounds to shoot across the chronograph. Five rounds were loaded in the brass marked "Dakota Arms 450" and five rounds were loaded in brass marked "450 Dakota". All the brass had been fired two or three times before. All rounds were full length resized with RCBS dies. The sizing die was screwed in until it touched the shellholder and then backed off a 1/8th of a turn. Each round was loaded with 94 grains of Reloder 15 from the same five pound canister and a 450 grain TSX seated out to 3.74. The Reloder 15 is lot number 75138 and the canister indicates it was made in the USA (not Sweden) in December of 2007. Temperature was 70-80 degrees. Here are the results:

Dakota Arms 450 Brass

High: 2419
Low: 2376
Avg: 2401
ES: 43
SD: 16

450 Dakota Brass

High: 2406
Low: 2380
Avg: 2395
ES: 26
SD: 10

As you can see, at least in my rifle, there was almost no difference in the brass. The Dakota Arms 450 brass was slightly faster and the 450 Dakota brass was a bit more consistent but here's the kicker. After I shot the first five rounds with the Dakota Arms 450 brass, it started to rain and I had to pull the chronograph in under the canopy. After the rain quit, I had to reposition everything and I it's at least possible that the slight difference in velocity could be attributable to a slightly different positioning of the chronograph.

I do not see any need to run these loads any faster. In my ten pound rifle, they generate about 68 pounds of recoil. Add about a pound for a scope and rings when I get them put on and recoil drops to only 62 pounds. At this velocity, with either a TSX or a banded solid, you would have a superb load for any animal in the world.

I have to give a little bump to Wayne Jacobsen here. My rifle is from AHR. When I ordered it, I did a wood upgrade with Fleur-de-lis checkering. Wayne gave me the most beautiful piece of hand select walnut I have ever had. It is just an extraordinary firearm. Damn thing is way to nice to hunt with

See most recent range results above.

Have a new .470 coming next week so moving on to get that shooting next.

Dave,
Must be the two lots of brass you got are very similar,
and at least one of them is different from one of Andy's.

Good point about the chrono. If it is not perfectly leveled, by the bubble as best you can, it will produce a slower reading.

Add some more Good Data to the X-Files.

Wayne is one meticulous craftsman, and his sense of esthetics is second to none. I always stay at his house the Friday night before we drive to the Helena shoot. I think we about talked out guns between the drive out (300mi one way) and back.
I am working on him to come down to the H-n-S in October.

Rich
DRSS

Ron,

When you are back from the holidays and have a chance to contemplate things ballistic, would you do me a favor and calculate the likely psi of my Africa load using 450 grain NF bonded soft point, Dakota Arms 450 (new) brass and 98 grains RL-15.

I used this at a verifiable 120 degrees F and the primers still have radius left on them. As did the NF FN w 100 grains RL15 at about 100 degrees F.

Andy

Andy,
O.K.
I will assume that bullet has the same start pressure as a standard jacketed rifle bullet.
I think the shank grooves "soften and slick" the solid copper shank to make start pressure similar to a conventional cup&core.
.458/450-grain North Fork SSP:

1.450" bullet length

Case capacity is 138.8 grains of H2O gross for "Dakota Arms 450" new brass:
That's what I got after one firing of the case.
I never consider new, unfired brass capacity, because the brass blows out even bigger than the "new-once-fired" gross, during first firing.
Springs back. Fully formed.

COL, an arbitrary 3.750"

Barrel length 24", won't affect pressure.

Lemme go run QuickLOAD with RL-15:
If you want to change any of the above parameters, lemme know ...

98.0 grains of RL-15 according to QuickLOAD:

56,315 PSI

23": 2485 fps
24": 2508 fps
25": 2529 fps

Good Load.