anyone here have eperience using hard cast or gaschecked cast lead in .375 caliber rifles.
i am setting up a 376 steyr and want to have the same bullet weight at the same MV for different purposes. ill retreat the nose of the lead bullets to soften some and leave other very hard for penetration but be able to shoot to the same POA.
looking at a gaschecked 255 1.055 OAL, .120" dias meplat This bullet is designed for reduced H&H loads. im thinking 2500 MV max using H4895 59 grains shouldnt be compressed but should fill the case enough.
rifle is steyr w/ Hammer forged BBl.

Can you drive lead bullets that fast without compromising them? I'm not talking about leading the bore, but rather, the friction melting the lead as it travels down the bore.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Can you drive lead bullets that fast without compromising them? I'm not talking about leading the bore, but rather, the friction melting the lead as it travels down the bore.

George

Sometimes. Accuracy varies at these speeds w/ cast bullets. I gas check them & then wrap them w/ teflon tape to stop leading

George it is possible, and the larger the bullet diameter the easier (comparatively speaking) it is. Flip your cigar lighter on and swipe your hand across the flame as fast as you can. No heat sensation because it is not there very long. The bullet, at 2500fps is inside of a 24" barrel only .0008 seconds. To work at that speed, the process is fussy; hard alloy along the lines of linotype or similar, bullets not sized just gas checked and lubed in a bullet diameter +.005" H&I die, and a very good high speed lube.

Kellet,

I am load tinkering with the same cartridge with cast for practice. I have the NEI 375-280gr GC mould, which casts 311 grains out of my alloy. I am at 2100fps now and sub-3moa at 100 yards. If you want softnose cast, that is possible as well. Get the mould up to temp and casting good bullets. Then drop a .32 caliber round lead ball in the nose and pour. It takes some time, but you can end up with linotype bullets with a pure lead nose. I am thinking 2350 may be a more realistic velocity, but let the amount of leading in the barrel and the chronograph tell you "how fast is fast...".

Rich
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rich, i was going to stand the bullets up in a pan 3/4 full of ice water and run a brazing torch over the tips till they start to turn colors. the steyr has only a 20" barrel so its not going to be in the tube very long. odd enough is that w/ jacketed bullets i always got my best accuracy from the fastes loads.
i was looking at the Beartooth bullets. they are 22 hardness. im not going to soften anything but the nose. 2350 from the steyr is pretty easy, actually very slow from the jackets bullet numbers.
i suppose i could go to a heavier bullet pushed slower. if i use varget a 270 is still going 2400 w/ only a 61g grain charge.

I don't shoot hardcast lead bullets except out of handguns, so my knowledge regarding them is limited.

Rich, I understand that barrel time is short, but I don't agree with your analogy. The bullet is not passing over the heat, it is 'causing' the heat over its entire bearing surface.

I realize that some lead bullets have magical, mystical properties, especially when driven at low velocity (I wonder why those bullets are only sold in loaded ammo and are not made available to handloaders? ), but how hard would a bullet have to be cast (BHN) to survive 2500fps?

George

FWIW-I learned a very important lessons about cast bullets years ago. In modern rifles at speeds of over 2200fps I only use linotype. Its hard as hell! It does not require additional hardening( you should wait a day or so for it to reach maximal hardness) and was designed to nearly perfectly fill a bullet mold ( after all it was invented for type molds). I make my molds exactly .001 over bore diameter, cast bullets from Linotype and DO NOT EVER SIZE THEM. I weigh the bullets and only accept .1 gr varience. I also only accept perfect bullets with NO evidence of Wrinkles. Everything else and there isn't much waste actually gets remelted. I lube directly once cooled as they drop from the mold with SPG lube with a grossly oversize lube die which doesn't change any bullet dimensions. I don't even bother with gas checks if at all possible. I spent years fooling with other alloys and mostly got frustrated. Try Linotype you'll like it. I have no idea what it costs these days, but its worth it. I make my own lathe turned molds these days and have made them up to .729 for the 12ga FH. Its amazing how well these bullets group with XMR 5744 and enough dacron to produce zero airspace in the case.-Rob

With the alloy heat treated slugs we use
in 12GA FH testing, the faster you go less
leading. Over 2500 the barrel is cleaner
than from the factory. Those with alloys
to make them cast hard, same deal. And only needs light coat of lube. Ed

George,

that is why I emphasized good lube. What Rob and Ed have said is generally true. I have the Lyman 335gr semi-spitzer PB mould and a Brooks 375gr PB (plain base) as well that I have run over 2000fps without leading issues. My opinion, which is just and only that; is that a 310 +/- grain bullet at 2350 is plenty.

Kellet,

Sounds like a good plan to experiment with.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Thanks for the education, gentlemen.

George

FWIW- I've exceeded 3000fps with LINOTYPE bullets and there was no evidence of the rifling stripping and no bore leading. These bullets don't expand though.
Linotype does not work as well as 10:1 LEAD/TIN IS ANTIQUE rifles though. I suspect it because Linotype doesn't expand and skips over the sometimes large bore size changes found in these guns. Here a soft alloy makes a big difference. In modern bores Linotype works exceedingly well. Anyway i thought I'd pass on this info for those who are interested.
Finally, If you want real high velocity, try conbining Linotype bullets and paper patching. You'll never see any fouling ever.-Rob

My first batch of cast bullets:

410-grain .396-caliber gas-checkedLFN, from LBT mould,
and
480-grain .510-caliber from an off-the-shelf Lee mould (sized down from .515 and the supposed 500-grain weight must be for pure lead):



150 plinkers or game getters for any .395,
50 for a 500A2 or 500 Jeffery,
and the left-over alloy pored into an ingot of almost a pound:



These may be crude by some standards, but they are my first batch of cast boolits.

I am calling this RIPalloy:
12 pounds clip-on wheel weights
1/2 pound 95/5 solder (tin/antimony)
1/2 pound chilled shot

I think the BHN is somewhere around 15 to 20.
These were dropped from the mould into a bucket of water.

I'll see how they work at up to 2150 fps.

Veral Smith can make an excellent mould to your specifications, for less than 10X the cost of a Lee.

You need to slug the throat of your rifle, and send him the slug, and he will make it fit.

quote:

I am calling this RIPalloy:
12 pounds clip-on wheel weights
1/2 pound 95/5 solder (tin/antimony)
1/2 pound chilled shot

What!? No Tequila in that recipe!!

Just a dash of RIPple into the pot to flux.
Then a shot of Ratzeputz to wash down a habenero chewed well and swallowed, to make your nose run, to cleanse the lead, arsenic, tin and antimony from your nose hairs.

Careful not to get your Robusto too close to the flux recipe. Hey I bet Andre' in Denmark could get us some Real Ratzeputz! He's relatively close to the former West Prussian Duchy of Oldenburg. What could we send him in return??

I could request two bottles of Ratzeputz for whatever number of shots into the IWB he requires.
I will send you one bottle in appreciation of your help with the .395.

So much shootin' to do, so little time ...

I have a new set of small crystal shot glasses which would be perfect for some Ratzeputz. Who knows what I could be inspired to make if I had a few shots of that stuff!!

Congratulations RIPper, you are now a member of the lead slingers assn. There is a pretty nifty feeling of accomplishment in producing good bullets isn't there?

Rich
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Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich,
Thank you.
No finer feeling of accomplishment ... if they shoot O.K.
However, I hear that Ratzeputz makes one feel finer than frog hair and would love to try at least a wee shot of that.

Thanks for the image of the Ratzeputz label, Mac.
That is the closest I have been to a taste of it yet.
Ever vigilant, looking to snag some.

My gas checks on the .395 bullet are Hornady .416's.
I will see if I can squeeze on some .375 gas checks on the rebated base of the bullet, and see if they can be bumped up to .396.

The off-the-shelf Lee mould for .515/500gr and a .510 Lee sizing die were easy to get, maybe not ideal. The 50-cal Hornady gas checks are too small to fit the base of that bullet, so I will try them bare and .510" before i give up on that plinker.

A 775-grain .511" gas-checked LFN bullet designed for the 50BMG can be ordered for $125/250, 50 cents each, IIRC, but where is the fun in that?

after casting your own it's hard to buy CBs. Sort of that "left out of the process" feeling one gets when buying factory ammunition.

I think I had to turn the shank on my brother's 50-90 mould to about .464" to fit the Hornady gas checks on properly. It is snowing again here to I will likely fire up the propane heater in the shed and cast/size&lube bullets for my 375 and 9,3mm.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich- I know that you are big on big bores. Do you use your cast bullets on dangerous game and what your experience has been? Seems like to me they would work just fine if the hardness was correct.

Have had good luck with the Lyman 375449 which casts a 285 gr GC bullet in WW. I size to 0.377" and lube with Carnauba Red.

I use 40 gr XMR 5744 for a light load and get 2" or so at 100 yards from a Winchester M70 SS Classic.

Perfectly able to hit pie plates. Cheap practice.

Takes three patches to get a clean bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
FWIW-I learned a very important lessons about cast bullets years ago. In modern rifles at speeds of over 2200fps I only use linotype. Its hard as hell! It does not require additional hardening( you should wait a day or so for it to reach maximal hardness) and was designed to nearly perfectly fill a bullet mold ( after all it was invented for type molds). I make my molds exactly .001 over bore diameter, cast bullets from Linotype and DO NOT EVER SIZE THEM. I weigh the bullets and only accept .1 gr varience. I also only accept perfect bullets with NO evidence of Wrinkles. Everything else and there isn't much waste actually gets remelted. I lube directly once cooled as they drop from the mold with SPG lube with a grossly oversize lube die which doesn't change any bullet dimensions. I don't even bother with gas checks if at all possible. I spent years fooling with other alloys and mostly got frustrated. Try Linotype you'll like it. I have no idea what it costs these days, but its worth it. I make my own lathe turned molds these days and have made them up to .729 for the 12ga FH. Its amazing how well these bullets group with XMR 5744 and enough dacron to produce zero airspace in the case.-Rob

Yup, when I was casting for my 44 mag, I used an SSK mold with pure Linotype and threw 313g bullets consistently. I was lucky that a relative worked at a printing press so I got plenty of Linotype whenever I needed it.

Have you used cast bullets in your 600 OK?

Pegleg,

three Bison Bulls and five Elk in the last eight years.

First Bison and two Elk were with a 500gr Bhn 24 slug out of a Shiloh 45-70, all between sixty and one hundred twenty or so yards. MV was only about 1500fps.
Second Bison and third Elk with a 50-110 '86 Winchester with a 475gr Lyman copy of the original 50-70 mould, MV of 1900fps. WW+1% tin, Bhn of 17 IIRC.
Last Bison with my CZ 416 Rigby and the RCBS 350gr GC about 59gr of AA5744 for 2154fps MV. Same alloy. Last Elk with my CZ 9,3x62mm. 304gr NEI GC mould and enough WCC-846 to hit 2200 +/-fps.
I am headed Bison hunting again when I get back from the SHOT Show end of next week. 550 Gibbs, will load either the 780gr PB NEI RFN at 2250 or give Macifej's solid a try. I have only recovered a few bullets, the ones from the 45-70. Everything else went thru and howled off across the plains. I shoot them behind the crease of the front leg, and they generally break a rib going in, scramble things, and break a rib going out, or I find them against the hide on the far side when we skin them out.

I earned the $$$ for my first centerfire riding a tractor from "can't see in the morning, til can't see at night..." for 90-cents an hour part of a summer at age 15 to acquire an old Krag that had been restocked and rebarreled to 25 Krag FL. Had an Ace barrel from Flaigs...if you know who that is you are O-L-D!! Came with a Lyman RFN 100gr mould, a kake-cutter, a 310 tong tool and dies, a lead pot you used with the coleman stove, and a metal sardine can full of bullet lube you could melt, and a second can to pour the melted lube in after you stood the bullets on end in it. I learned one painful lesson, DO NOT melt the lube in the house on the stove...STINK!!!! That was summer of 1964, and I have been a cast bullet shooter by preference ever since. Probably ingested enough lead fumes to make a normal person crazy.

Rich
DRSS
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IS, that is oold. That's when one could legally order a surplus rifle w/o ID and get it in the mail.

58 isn't really very old...if you're a Redwood tree! I remember buying a pound of surplus powder for $1 a pint paint can, only 95-cents if you brought your own can! Good old 4831 and BL-C2.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Thanks Rich!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
... Probably ingested enough lead fumes to make a normal person crazy.

Rich

I have a late start at plumbism, and consider myself almost "normal," but maybe I too shall gitterdun before insanity sets in.

Rich,
Thanks for the pointer. I reckon I can chamfer the rebated base of the .396 enough to get the .375 gas check started onto it and that will bump it up to .396 when sized. Might even fine tune the 2.17 grain standard deviation of my 410.82-grain gas checked .396 bullet down to exactly 400.00 grains that way.

I will have to do some "turning" on that .515 base to fit the Hornady gas check, and get the proper sizing die to do .511 or .512 from the .515 as cast.

Here are the NEI moulds that interest me. They cast about .002" to .003" bigger diameter than the specified caliber, eh? Maybe I will find a less fussy gas check fit for one of these:


and


from this page of the NEI catalog:

OOH! LOOKEE HERE!

A squirrel gas-checker:



And a paper-patcher for 40-calibers:


from this page of the NEI catalog:


http://www.neihandtools.com/index.html

S&H Shark gills lead the way on this one, making it especially appealing:

Lead! Yuck!!

Wear a respirator boyz!!

Or one of them big green gas masks!

any idea how the steyr barrel will take to lead?

IF they are made hard enough, and used with the right lube, a cast gascheck bullet can be driven up to at least 2700 FPS and in some cases quite a bit higher than that with acceptable accuracy and no leading.

LBT Blue is the lube I use. I have one good "deer" load for my .375 H&H that uses a cast gascheck bullet, the Lyman 375449, which was originally designed for the .38/55. My mould is one of the "U" moulds, meaning it casts an undersize bullet. The .38/55 can have a groove diameter of up to .380" in some cases, but I bought this mould with the .375 H&H, etc., in mind. Bullets drop from the mould at .376 cast from wheelweight metal, and I heat-treat them to 21 Brinell.

My load is 60 grains of H4831 with a kapok wad on top to keep the powder firmly against the flashhole. My theory is that one should use as slow a powder as possible that will give the velocity desired and pretty much fills the case. The load will be more accurate if the bullet is accelerated slowly with less pressure to cause gas to blow by the bullet. Gas blow-by causes inaccuracy, as does deformation from too-violent an acceleration. I avoid the fast-powder loads that Lyman seems to like in their cast bullet loads.

For example, I use 112 grains of AA8700 in my 350-grain RCBS cast gascheck flatnose .416 Rigby loads. This target shows four shots with this cast .416 load. The three touching were fired from a sandbag rest. The low shot was fired first, using a Lead Sled. MV of this load is 2100 FPS. Bullets are Brinell 21.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
rich, i was going to stand the bullets up in a pan 3/4 full of ice water and run a brazing torch over the tips till they start to turn colors. the steyr has only a 20" barrel so its not going to be in the tube very long. odd enough is that w/ jacketed bullets i always got my best accuracy from the fastes loads.
i was looking at the Beartooth bullets. they are 22 hardness. im not going to soften anything but the nose. 2350 from the steyr is pretty easy, actually very slow from the jackets bullet numbers.
i suppose i could go to a heavier bullet pushed slower. if i use varget a 270 is still going 2400 w/ only a 61g grain charge.

I made some "softpoint" cast bullets for my .45/70 by standing the bullets (wheelweight metal) on their bases in a jar lid, placing them in the oven at 465 degrees for two hours, then quickly pouring very cold water into the lid upon removal from the oven, covering the entire driving-band portion of the bullet up to the crimping groove. (Lyman 457122HP bullets, 342-grains from my mould using wheelweight metal). The "quenched" sections of the bullet showed Brinell 22 with an LBT hardness tester, while the nose sections showed "9" Brinell.

Since this is a plain-base bullet, I used an inverted gascheck on top of the powder charge. I was able to get up to 2200 FPS with this bullet from my Ruger No. 1, with accuracy running in the 1.5 MOA zone for three shots at 100 yards. LBT Blue lube.

Linotype makes very hard bullets. They will not expand, as mentioned in a previous post, but if driven fast enough, will actually SHATTER on impact with game animals.

Bullets made from wheelweights can be made harder than even linotype (up to vic. of 30 on the Brinell scale), IF the bullets are heated to within a very narrow margin of actually melting in the oven, "ccoked" for three to four hours at this temperature, then immediately quenched in very cold water. It takes several days from quenching for them to reach maximum hardness. I size my bullets (where necessary) BEFORE hardening them, because the swaging that takes place during sizing actually strts a softening process that eventually results in the bullets becoming too soft for high velocity applications. Then, after heat-treating the sized bullets, I apply the lube BY HAND so as to not affect their hardness.

Anyone who wants to know exactly what is possible with cast bullets should read Veral Smith's (Lead Bullet Techhnologies -LTB) book, JACKETED VELOCITIES WITH CAST BULLETS"

What Ell Deguello said! Veral is the tinkeringest (is that a word? Is now) cast bullet guy and mould maker out there. He understands that the bullet has to fit the throat. That is why he will send you a lead kit that allows you to upset a pure lead slug in the throat. Send that back and you get a mould that fits, and doesn't waste energy and integrity upsetting to fit the throat, then swaging back down to get thru the barrel. Good alloy, good design, good lube and a gas check; the recipe for equivalent velocity in most big bores used here. Oh yeah, at about 1/4th the price of jacketed, AND you are immune to the price hikes.

Rich
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I make a High Speed cast bullet lube, Carnauba Red, . It will hold up to high pressures and high velocities very well. I've only shot it to 2700 fps, but a friend says he's gone 3000 fps with no leading or fouling.
If anyone would like to try a sample, just email me with your address. 2700 fps sounds like a bunch of hot air. That's why I send out free samples so you can try it for yourself and form your own opinion.

For those who don't cast, Mt. Baldy Bullets is useing Carnauba Red.
http://www.mtbaldybullets.com/asp/products.asp#Smokeless

Here's a link for heat treating,http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/index.asp...Use a bullet with a gas check,size first then treat.Although anything much over 2200fps and the bullet will shatter
on impact.

Hey Lar,

I got some of your lube about two months ago. I've run an NEI 310gr GC over 2300, and my 360gr GC RCBS 416 up to nearly 2400fps in the CZ Rigby with the red. Looking pretty good so far. Next up is the Sharps 38-90 and a Brooks/DanT 380gr PB and black with the supreme.

Good stuff folks,

Rich
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