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I know a gent who has killed cape buffalo with a 7.62X39 Soviet. Seen a good sized bison bull taken with two shots from a 30-30 also. Seen a smallish bison cow take 5 hard cast (440 gr I believe) 45-70 hits in the boiler room from a M1886 also. That tough ass little cow didn't go down for several minutes either. Seen bison bulls absorb 8 rounds from a 300 WM and take 45 minutes to die (more than once). Seen an average sized bison cow take three solids hits from a 458 WM before also (all pass throughs) and I still had to finish her for the hunter about ten minutes after he "gave up". Seen water buff taken with a 12 slug gun (sabots the wasp waisted ones) although none of those died in 5 seconds, more like a 30 seconds to a minute, they still died. What does it all mean? Can someone explain this? Why do this little and/or anemic rounds seem to work as well as the big bore howitzers?  | ||
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It only proves one thing "shit happens" | |||
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If the central nervous system is not damaged by a shot a beast may well stay on it's feet; no matter the grain weight of the projectile. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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Agreed gentlemen, but why do the small anemic cartridges seem to work better than the big powerful ones when shot placement is basically the same for both? | |||
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Hydroshock? | |||
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Scott--I have a theory, and it is only a theory, and I certainly can't prove it. But I am starting to suspect that when you hit them really hard, at high velocity, that it may cause a MASSIVE adrenalin dump into the animal's system as nature's effort to keep the animal alive--as in all the available adrenalin in that animal's system. The extreme tenacity exhibited by the animal at that point is the last ditch effort for it to remain standing. ALSO, the extreme shock generated by the high velocity mega foot pound impact may well numb or otherwise overwhelm the animal's pain receptors and cause a numbing action that works in concert with the huge amount of adrenalin to keep the animal from realizing how bad it is hurt. On the other hand, if you put the right bullet through both lungs or the heart and get a complete pass through at a moderate velocity, the animal gets an adrenalin jolt, BUT TO A LESSER EXTENT. It is hurt, and knows it but will either stand there trying to figure out what happened or try to run off. The lungs will either collapse or fill with blood, or the heart will eventually pump air, and the animal will lay down and suffocate. In the latter case, the lack of a MASSIVE adrenalin hit causes the body systems to shut down quicker. As I said, I can't prove it, but I have seen some animals hit extremely hard with huge entry wounds and massive exit wounds run a lot farther than you would otherwise expect, yet hit them a lot less hard but still shoot all the way through them, and it's often DRT. If you punch a 45 caliber hole through the heart, both lungs, or the brain, they die pretty quick. If you hit them hard enough to do this and exit, they don't remain standing. As I said, I can't prove it but at the same time I don't have another answer. But I do believe it goes a ways toward explaining why bison are often hard to kill with a .458 Win or a 375, or other more powerful cartridge. | |||
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I have a slightly different theory. Some animals are more sensitive to hydro-static shock than others. The buffalo is pretty immune for what ever reason. Bullets moving at high speed expand violently fairly early and then leave a small wound channel through to the exit. In the case of the buffalo, there is quite a bit of distance between entrance and vital, so most of the energy is expended prior to reaching the vitals. Also, when they hit bone, the bone will splinter into small fragments. Big bullets moving at lower speed leave a wide wound channel throughout. When bones are hit, large fragments are thrown thrown through the chest cavity. Blood loss is more massive, and the animal goes into shock and collapses sooner. | |||
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Sharpsguy & Boar Hunter, There may be truth in what both of you are saying. I have never seen any buffalo stay on its feet for long when hit in the chest with a fast 50 even it the bullet did not exit. The fast 50, when shooting Woodleigh soft points, really generate huge wound channels ie no lungs or no heart depending upon placement. The 458 WM simply doesn't do this, at least not with 500 gr pills. I have never seen a 45-70 put a buff down quickly, but have heard tales of it. So I struggle to understand the reasons behind the varied performance of the 45-70. I have only seen the 30-30 used once, and it worked very well. The 300 WM I have seen in action three times it universally sucked. I have seen the 338 WM used many times and it wasn't any better then the 300 (actually worse maybe). Worse 338 WM performance I can recall, it took 4.5 hours to finish off a little bison heifer after being shot twice in the lungs (alright second shot was quartering and entered liver exited lung). The herd took off we lost her and it took along time to decide which one she was (we got lucky and guessed right). One more from the 338, which did nothing, followed by one from the 500 which dropped here in mid step. Took us a while of searching the carcass to find the two original bullet holes, which had completed clotted up. The 30-06 seems to be a bit better than the 300 WM, but that is probably splitting hairs. The 12 gauge slug gun seemed to be better than any of these medium bores though, shooting a wasp waisted sabot of somekind. The 12 ga didn't exit even on smallish buff cows. A real funny one was a guy using a hard cast bullet of some type in a Marlin lever action, cartridge was 444 Marlin. Two big bulls standing abreast of each other, the smaller one just a few feet in front of the big one. Guy shoots big bull in head, bullet bounces off the big bulls head and hits the slightly smaller bull in the arse, the arse shot bull takes off rather pissed. The head shot bull just follows the arse shot bull, but at a mere trot. Guy has to pay for two bulls, and he didn't even kill the darned things, now that sucks! Still don't understand. | |||
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My theory, don't we all have one?, is smaller rounds at higher impact velocity cause more of a "radial-axial tissue displacement" activity. Like the hydrostatic shock, but adding some tissue disruption at speed. Still, it's hard to quantify. I just hit them all right behind the shoulder crease and about one-third up. Nothing has ever gotten far. Three big bison bulls here, and one Cape Buffalo. Rich | |||
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You have a very limited set of data and it is basically meaningless Shoot 20 of each animal in the same spot with various rounds and then you might be able to draw some conclusions... That 7.62x39 may have severed the aorta and that cape buffalo bled out in two minutes...who knows Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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ISS, I sort of agree with you. There is really no reason to shoot for the point of the shoulder to determine if your favorite projectile can with stand the impact. when ever I hear the bullet blew up on the shoulder bone; I immediately think; what a lousy shot. There are more efficient ways to dispatch a animal. Now if you are trying to slow down an animal running away after being shot terminally that may be an effective solution. EZ | |||
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Yup Scott its a known fact that if you shoot an animal in the right place they deceide to eventually die. YOU can wake em up though with electricity!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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No data is meaningless, only its interpretations. I have talked to quite a few bison guides, many have given the same advice, they would much rather see a 45/70 than a 300 or 338 mag. My wife is planning on doing a Bison hunt in 2010, her choice, based on the advice of many guides, is 450/400 Nitro Express 3". John | |||
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2 of my hunting buddies go on a bison shoot each year. Mind you, thats a shoot, not a hunt, these are feed lot bison raised for meat like cattle, the owner charges a small fee for the chance to go harvest one. Mike uses a 270, and his 2 cows have both taken 2 shots but it was not a long affair. Jerry uses a 338-284, same results. They said people show up with rifles of all types for this. Someone took a 243 this year and put nearly a whole box into an animal before it so much as flinched. They saw the same results that some of you guys have with the fast 30/33's, didn't kill as efficiently as the slower slugs. Some guys use 45/70's and such, but still, no faster kill then the 270 and 338x284. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Mike, Between myself, a few good friends, and hunting guides I believe the data I am privy to is statistically significant ie greater than 20 animals for at least some of the cartridges. The one thing that has been very very consistent it the extremely consistent effectiveness of a fast 50 caliber rifle (500 AHR, 500 Jeffery, 500 A2, etc) or even larger say 577 NE. These stopping rifles work, period, provided the slug is placed in the chest cavity ie lungs/heart. Average shots here is 1. Another very consistent observation is the 7mm, 300, and 338 all suck! The simply do not seem to work well. The two smaller calibers have failed on head shots, bullet failures mind you not cartridge (in my opinion very poor bullet selection such as Core Lokt). Average shots for these seem to be in the 5 to 6 range! The 416 (Rem and Rigby) and 458 WM are OK performers frequently requiring multiple GOOD hits to bring them down though. The average would be around 2.5 to 3 shots. The 45/70 seems to work, but consistency is not there. Basically, the 45/70 seems to vary in results between the 300 and the 458 WM, but it has performed even better than that. The anemic stuff I have only seen used on very tame animals (you can pet them as they are raised by hand from calves, this is done by many bison operations to increase safety it is a sad thing in my eyes particularly if these bison are to be hunted someday). By anemic I am talking bout 30-30, 270Win, 12 ga, etc. They have worked well, but then again these are the same animals upon which the 45-70 has shown it best results as well. I am curious if the "wildness" of the beast plays a role in it's tenacity for life. I believe it does, and I believe it may be a significant factor. | |||
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Scott, I guess thats why we love this sport, there are very few things set in stone, often times things make little or no sense. I have one for the hydrostatic shock crowd. I hunt coyote, on this day I was useing a .220 Swift in a 700 custom 27' barrel set back to shoot 40 grain Berger MEF hollowpoints. The 40 grainers leave the muzzle at 4800 fps, the destruction this combo does to non living targets has to be seen to be believed. I am all camo'ed in my ground blind and call a good size coyote up over a rise, I make a picture perfect shot right behind the shoulder. The coyote takes off... the shot was made a 26 FEET. After a while I go check, I find chunks of lung, heart...it was a mess, no coyote. He left no blood trail after the hit, by luck I found him 50 yards away from the shot laying dead in some heavy cover. He was dead and still ran 50 yards, someone else will have a bang flop with a .22 magnum at that distance go figure. | |||
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Scott--FWIW, I think the reason that you see spotty results with the 45-70 is almost nobody knows how to load them correctly. You see frequent failures with factory jacketed ammo, both 300HP and 400FN. This leads to inconsistent performance. On the other hand, the 400 grain monometal 1800fps loads deliver the big adrenalin dump I spoke about. I have killed four bison, and have seen eight others taken, all but one with Sharps rifles shooting 450 to 540 grain cast bullets at 20 or 30-1. The only bullet that failed to completely penetrate side to side was the 450 grain bullet. Impact velocities have been in the 1100 to 1280 fps range, and NONE of the animals required more than two shots. The other animal was a good bull taken with an 1895 Marlin shooting factory Remington 400 grain ammo. It took two shots, and both bullets were recovered, one was completely gone except for the jacket. I feel that the reason the lever 45-70's give inconsistent performance on the large animals is that by and large they are not shooting a heavy enough bullet, as they are limited in overall cartridge length to what will cycle through the magazine. The big single shot Sharps and Remingtons do not have this problem, and loaded with blackpowder, operate in a velocity range that is about perfect for complete penetration with heavy bullets on these animals. Residence time of the bullet going through the animal is another factor that is open to question, and its effects are largely unproven, but I think cannot be discounted. Bottom line is a 45-70 loaded with a 500 grain lead bullet at 1150 to 1250 fps works on bison about as well as anything, and better than most. We have never shot one that was fed from a bucket or that could be petted. | |||
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sharpsguy, I tend to agree with you regarding the 45-70. The gentlemen I have known using Sharps style rifles tend to be very very good shots, place the shot appropriately, and use heavy bullets at below 1400 fps. This combination seems to penetrate deep, and not fail the bullets. In my experience the hard casts do not hold up well at above say 1800 fps. The lever crowd seem to use too light a bullet, drive them too fast, and for whatever reason are not as good a shots. Having said all that the Old man when advising my daughter persuaded her to use a 458 WM for buffalo. The Old man is a devoted Sharps guy (actually his preference is recurve bow, then muzzle loader, then BP cartridge). | |||
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